Sata's mathematics must be confused, charges Sinyangwe

Sata's mathematics must be confused, charges Sinyangwe
By Amos Malupenga
Sunday February 10, 2008 [03:00]

Sata’s mathematics must be confused, National Constitution Conference (NCC) vice-chairperson Faustina Sinyangwe has observed. Commenting on Patriotic Front (PF) president Michael Sata’s assertion that NCC members were the worst plunderers because they were receiving K46 million per month, money which could be used for national development as opposed to using it on a dubious process, Sinyangwe said Sata’s statement was not only incorrect but grossly misleading.

“I don’t know how his mathematics is. His maths must be confused because we are not getting that kind of money,” Sinyangwe said. “Speaking for myself, I receive K500,000 as sitting allowance per sitting and K100,000 as transport allowance. In total I receive K600,000.

Those who come from outside Lusaka are the ones who receive K650,000 for lodging and meals, K500,000 as sitting allowance and K300,000 as transport allowance. And if you are coming from Nakonde, what is K300,000? These are the figures that I know and you don’t need to get this information from me. Go to NCC secretariat and ask to check the records, after all these are public matters so people are free to ask and get correct answers.

When Mr Sata talks about K46 million per month, I don’t know where he is getting his figures from. And an impression has been created that we get allowances every day even when we are not sitting. We only get the allowances when the conference is sitting. Even when the conference is sitting, those who don’t attend don’t receive the allowances.”

Sinyangwe, who is Sata’s niece, said the people participating in the NCC had independent minds and that claims that they would be compromised by the hefty allowances were unfounded.

Question: Who is Faustina Sinyangwe?
Answer: My full names are Faustina Bwalya Kalupa Sinyangwe. I am the fifth child of my mother who is Julian Kalupa and my late father Bwalya Kalupa.

I was born in Luanshya in 1949. My father was a miner and I grew up in Luanshya where I started my education at Makoma School in Sub A up to standard two when I moved to Finsansa where I did standard three. Then I moved to St Theresa’s Mission.

After completing my standard six, they had opened Ibenga Secondary School so I continued there and finished all my education in Luanshya.

Q: What happened after you finished school?
A: I went to Evelyn Hone College; I wanted to be a secretary. But eventually, I realised it was not the type of work I wanted to do. Then I went for a teacher’s training at Mufulira Teachers’ Training College.

After training, I taught in Kitwe for three years at Chamboli Primary School. After those three years, I was seconded to education television as a television teacher. I was there part-time. After teaching on television for one year, my superiors then – Mr Shamatutu and Wilfred Chilangwa encouraged me to transfer to education television. This was now in 1974.

Then I applied for a transfer. But my district education officer said ‘no, you can’t be taking my good teachers so we can’t release her to come to education television’. So Mr Chilangwa who was then controller of education broadcasting decided that they should send me for training so that if I come back, they will have no use for me because the type of training that I will have done would require me to move to education broadcasting.

So I was sent to England in 1976 to study education technology.

Q: What was involved in that course?
A: It involved production, research, directing and presenting programmes and everything that goes into a production. So if I went into a television station, I would direct, produce and present. I would literary do everything. The course was very interesting but it had a bias on research and using media technology to teach.

So when I came back, naturally they had no choice but to take me to education television. After teaching there for two years, they wanted me to specialise because they thought I was good at presenting programmes so Mr Chilangwa wanted me to go back to specialise. But unfortunately, he left.

I found it the job very interesting because apart from doing schools’ programmes, we ventured into educational programmes which were not really tied to schools per se but which the schools would use as well as the public. That was not common at education television. But I really wanted to work closely with people who were involved in production like Jeff Sitali.

Frederick Norman Foundation also sponsored me to do education television. I did that course outside in the UK and came back. What followed was that I was promoted to be a lecturer from a teacher presenter.

Q: How was your TV presentation or teaching, did you teach to a specific audience or the audience was whoever watched television?

A: I was teaching social studies Africa for junior secondary school. Even the grade sevens used to use it. In those days, we used to give television sets to schools, hospitals and in all places where we thought we had people who would listen to our programmes.

That is why it was a challenge for me because as a teacher, you are confined to pupils in a classroom but since I was a TV teacher, it meant that my programmes were subject to criticism from anybody. So this gave me a challenge to do research so I could be factual. I also needed to have programmes that would benefit the pupils because television brings the outside world into the classroom. The idea was to capture those specific sentiments of a teacher, classroom or a lesson which a classroom teacher cannot get.

For example, if I am talking about Zimbabwe I can go and get a shot and people will see that this is Zimbabwe and this is Rufaro Stadium. And out of the many programmes I did, I remember a programme on Zimbabwe’s independence in 1980 which won me an international award when I entered the competition.

Q: What did you say about Zimbabwe’s independence?
A: I called the film, Three Time Luck because of the many times they had tried. There was UDI, they tried with the joint PF and ZANU and this third time they got the independence. So I went round the country to see what it was and I covered the independence celebrations in 1980. It was a very good programme and I got a certificate which I am still very proud of.

Through working, I was attached to the Commonwealth Broadcasting Association and I met very experienced television producers and writers.

Q: Could you get back to the point you were developing when you talked about being appointed as a lecturer?
A: Yes, I was appointed lecturer at the education television in Kitwe and I worked for three years. We have the same positions as lecturers in teacher training colleges; while they were lecturing to students, we were lecturing on air.

In 1989, I was appointed to assistant controller at education television. That meant that I was running the whole department of education television. We had a film department, photographic department, production and management and the research department.

Apart from the clerks, you will be surprised that I was the only woman in that department of education television heading men. It was a very big challenge though I didn’t feel it much because even when I was growing up, I was brought in a family of boys. I attribute a lot to my late dad because he used to tell me that ‘my father had nine girls’, and the late two were my father and his young brother. He said his father gave everybody at home equal chores. If it meant climbing the tree, the women did that. So he told me that he had no boys or girls, he just had children in a home and he gave us the challenges to do.

So I grew up looking at myself as a person rather looking at myself as a woman. And when I was heading a department full of men, I didn’t feel it would be difficult, though men sometimes want to push you around.

After working as assistant controller for three years, I was again sent abroad. This time to Washington to go and do television and broadcasting management. I was attached to WVIZ television station which was also a public broadcaster.

While there, I attended a very big conference which taught me a lot of things on education broadcasters and producers. Education broadcasting in this country is trivialised; whether we talk of education for all, it would take a long time for us to achieve that. Distance education using broadcasting is very cardinal because our friends in other countries told us that they get degrees and PhDs just by using the media and reading materials.

So when I came back, I was transferred to head the whole education broadcasting here in Lusaka. At the time, there was talk that they’re going to abolish education broadcasting altogether. I asked my permanent secretary then, Dr Sichalwe Kasanda, why they had brought me to Lusaka if they were abolishing the programme. He said ‘no, we spend a lot of money buying radio and TV sets but not so many people would listen to the programme’.

I said ‘why don’t we look at the other side of things because we now have so many children in the streets who cannot afford education so we can give them education that is cheaper and therefore affordable’.

That is how I brought the idea of us having a directorate of distance education where education broadcasting could belong together with the national correspondence college so that we start at that level then move it up to grade twelve level and link it up with the university. I thought there was a total breakdown from primary school and what is happening at the university. My idea then was to build up and link up with the university. I had a lot of discussions with the director of distance education and things were coming up but unfortunately I had to retire because you don’t work forever.

The plans that I had are not coming but one thing I am proud of is the interactive radio programme which I initiated which is known as Taonga Market.

Q: Was that your initiative?
A: Yes, that was my baby. I said ‘we have these children and mothers who spend all the time in the markets selling because they don’t have any other source of livelihood and we have grandparents with children. So why do we offer some kind of education to the out of school?’

At first they said it was impossible because I was talking of people who were scattered all over. But I was very determined. As I said earlier, I was a producer so I produced one programme for the girl-child education and the people at NORAD really admired that programme.

So they went to find out at ZNBC who did that programme. They were told that the producer was at education. They followed and I told them I was planning to sponsor education to the out of school children. They asked how this could be done. I said we just had to sensitise people by talking to them. This man from NORAD bought the idea but he was not sure.

And, Amos, I remember the two years when I planned for that programme. I never knew what a weekend was; I worked on Saturdays and Sundays. When my driver was tired, I picked my husband to come with me just in case I had a tyre burst he would help out. I went in villages talking to the people.

So I piloted that project in Monze, Chongwe and Lusaka. I had meetings with villagers, convincing them to find a mentor who would look after their children, convincing them to find a place where they could listen to a programme and also to borrow a radio from the neighbourhood for use when time for lessons come.

When I took it to Chongwe, I wanted to pilot in three areas but the councillors said ‘no, we need a centre in each of our wards’ and there were about nine wards and we gave in. So we had nine centres in Lusaka and about ten in Monze. We worked tirelessly writing programmes and did all what we could before launching the programme with Honourable Brigadier General Godfrey Miyanda who was education minister at the time. He was very helpful.

Q: Which year was this?
A: This was about the year 2000. We started with grade one and moved to grade two. It was interesting when we went to Monze because parents were removing children from normal schools to our centres because they felt that the children were learning more than in the normal schools. This was because the radio teacher would always be there, there was nothing like the teacher has gone for a funeral or he is today sick. Our programmes were so well planned that the children learnt well.

And one thing that excited me was that when I went back to monitor, I found that even the elderly people had started using the programmes. That made me very sad because I knew that Zambians were really thirsty for education. When I came back, I told people at the ministry that we needed to do something for adults because there were things like stand, jump, in the programmes for children and it would be difficult for elders to follow that. But the elders told me they were happy because they could go to the bank and sign signatures.

So I said we needed to plan for adults. By the time I left, we had gone up to grade four. Now they have gone up to grade seven. My idea was that when we get to grade seven, we should inter-link with national correspondence college at grade six level and give them packs of modules for them to follow.

But I hear that some of our children wrote grade seven and they had gone to grade eight. I hope and pray that they will follow that because if it crumbles, I will be very sad because that is something I laboured.

Q: I know that this Taonga Market is a radio programme, but just how does it operate?

A: Now the Ministry of Education had realised that it is something they can really look to, especially in the rural areas. When I was there, I lobbied for radios, boards, chalk and exercise books. So people just find a place. In rural areas, they use even homes. Then we find school leavers who in most cases have nothing to do. So we help them out in this area.

In the programme, it is built on what the teacher is supposed to do so they just follow. I did a lot of monitoring, even with my staff to see if the programme was making progress. We did a lot of evaluations.

Q: I have listened to this programme on radio on a number of occasions but now I am trying to imagine what happens on the ground. So tell me, what happens?

A: We have training sessions for mentors once a year. We do a lot of practicing and sing the songs because we try to make it entertaining. The programme is on radio and the mentors or teachers are in the centres following the programme with the children. After the programme, the children are given exercises to write.

But the problem we had is that we were not paying these people (mentors). So I suggested to the Ministry of Education that we must have a way of motivating these people who are putting in a lot. I said ‘let’s recruit grade twelves, after they mentor for two years then we can send them to teacher’s training colleges for training’. That’s how far I left things. I don’t know if this was followed up.
The mentors were eager knowing they would go for training after two years.

Q: By the way, why did you name this programme as Taonga Market?
A: I decided to name the interactive radio programme as Taonga because in Tumbuka language, taonga means thank you. Secondly, I am so much in love with my niece’s daughter whose name is Taonga. Because I attached so much feeling to it, I gave it the name Taonga.

Q: When did you retire?
A: I left the ministry in 2003, that’s when I retired. And I really thank the ministry. They trained me a lot. I travelled a lot. At one time I was the chairperson of the SADC committee on education. I headed this committee for three years and we had Professors and PhD holders; I was there among these people as chair.

Normally, I was supposed to run just for a year but they kept retaining me for three years. And these three years I chaired the committee gave me the wider knowledge of what is happening in education.

Q: At the time of your retirement, what position did you hold?
A: I was director, education broadcasting services.

Q: What followed your retirement?
A: When I retired, the donors that I was working with were not very comfortable that I should go leaving that project. I did a lot of projects there, I was involved in the sensitising process during the decentralisation of the ministry. This programme took me to almost all corners of Zambia. I was also instrumental in the programme for the advancement of girls’ education in Zambia. I did the FAWEZA thing; I was the first publicity secretary.

So the donors wanted to retain me somehow after I retired. They said I should remain as a coordinator but away from the ministry. I was employed by USAID.

I worked just for four months when I was called to go and stand for parliamentary elections in Mpika. I left my good salary…(she laughs).

Q: Who called you to contest those elections?
A: There was a by-election in Mpika so the president asked if I could go.

Q: Which president?
A: President Sata.
Q: When did you join politics?
A: I think all of us are politicians by nature but it is the levels that matter. I was beginning to join politics at that level just after I retired. When I went into those elections, I didn’t know a thing; I didn’t know how they campaigned, how they talked to cadres because I would be upset and tell them ‘if you want money from me just go away’.
Somehow, I didn’t have enough time. I only went there for a month and in this one-month we had the nominations and elections. But I couldn’t make it.

I am normally a very determined person and get attached to people I work with. So I was attached to the people I worked with in Mpika. I said ‘I will work and I must get that seat’. I came back and continued to work with my people in Mpika.

But then I was told by my president that I will not go back to Mpika because I could contest a Lusaka seat.

Q: That’s how you abandoned Mpika?
A: I abandoned Mpika with great pain.

Q: When you decided to join politics, why did you settle for Patriotic Front and not any other political party?

A: As I said, I moved a lot across the country. I think I understand Zambia more than most of the politicians. And when I went around the country, I talked to people, to parents, children, churches and politicians. Each time I came back, I would tell them what I found on the ground.

I talked year after year but nothing moved. Then I thought ‘no, I shouldn’t join MMD because if I do, it will just be like I am just joining the same story’. But I didn’t want to belong to the failures again. I wanted us to make a change. That’s how I joined PF to make the change when we come to power because I had so many things I thought we would change if we came to power. That’s how I joined PF.

Q: I thought you joined PF because Mr Sata is your relative, isn’t that so?
A: Yes, Amos, Mr Sata is my uncle but I don’t work like that. I work out of my conviction, that I am doing what is right. You don’t join because of a person. PF is an organisation, it doesn’t belong to Mr Sata. So I joined the party because tomorrow Mr Sata might not be there.

Q: So there is also a family tree in PF?
A: (Laughter) But the difference with this family tree is that I work and convince the people that I can stand and work. I don’t want to rely on the family tree to talk for me, to make grades for me. I make my own grades. There is one thing I believe in from the time I was growing up; I must do what is right.

Q: I have heard some PF people complain that you were initially imposed in Mpika and later in Matero Constituency because of this same family tree business…

A: That’s interesting. As for Matero, when I came back from Mpika, the constituency I should have contested was Munali. I started work in Munali and I got along with the people there. But then the teachers who worked with me and the people that I interacted with when I was doing decentralisation work in Matero decided that they wanted me to be their MP. That’s how easy I had it.

When they told me this, I first thought it was a joke. But believe you me, Mr Sata didn’t want me to go to Matero. He fought that I should be removed. Even from the last day of my adoption, Mr Sata didn’t want to play a part because he didn’t want to be accused of imposing a relation on a constituency.

But the people of Matero came to Mr Sata several times saying they wanted me. And two years before elections, I was with the people of Matero. I worked with them because I wanted to know them, their problems and know the place. I also wanted them to know me. By the time of elections, it was plain sailing for me.

Q: But your uncle Mr Sata is on record as having said recently that you won Matero because of PF and if you want to be funny now he will kick you out of the party so you can prove your popularity if you think that you are popular…

A: The truth of the matter is you heard that in some instances the electorate refused the people they had given them. People now are developed. They are not just going to go because it’s a party. As for me, I think I won as me because I worked with the people for Matero for two years so they knew me. We did a lot with them.
Q: What did you do?

A: I had a lot of meetings with women. I even started youth football clubs. I was a teacher so mingling with people is my nature. I interacted with the teachers, the church, I am staunch catholic. So people knew who they were voting for. If I go with you to Matero, you will see that even the young children know me by name. So I won as a person. I know the people there love PF but I think I won as a person because they knew me. There were some instances where candidates were imposed on constituencies and we lost. The president won by the parliamentary candidate lost.

Q: Going back to your relationship with Mr Sata, from which side is he your uncle?
A: Mum’s side. My mother and Mr Sata are cousins. I knew my grandfather very well. I am talking about Mr Sata’s father who I adored. He was a wonderful man. When he was alive living at Mr Sata’s place, I was more frequent at their place because it was a pleasure being with him.

Q: Recently, you found yourself on Mr Sata’s other side and you must have, for a moment, forgotten that he was your uncle when you called him a thug after he allegedly sent some thugs to sort you out, how was that experience?

A: That incident was very sad. Let me go back a little, as members of parliament, we enacted the NCC Bill and I was part of that. Even in the process before the enactment, PF was part of that. Don’t you remember that my president was present at the summit of presidents at Mulungushi? The NCC was as a result of their meeting. They drew the roadmap and the Bill was brought to Parliament. It was taken to a committee where everybody submitted, PF included. Amendments were brought to the House, we debated and enacted.

Out of principle, I am not going to act against something that I was part of. I told you earlier that I stand as a person even if he is my own father and I think I don’t agree with him, I will say so. In this instance, I said I was not going to agree just because Mr Sata is my uncle. I want to do what is right.

There are two things here; to do the right thing or to go the easy way. I don’t believe that all the people who have stayed away believe that they wanted to stay away. They have stayed away because they were afraid of being fired.

But I think I am doing the right thing. I am representing my people in the constituency who are not only PF. You have MMD, ULP, UPND, the churches and all those who do not belong to any party. A party position should not stand in a way where one is representing people beyond party lines. There comes a time in one’s life when you have to put your head on the chopping board in order to do what is right.

I am a Franciscan, by the way. If you see those Catholic women who put on grey things, grey gowns. So I vowed obedience and I vowed humility. When I held the Bible and said I would defend the Constitution, why shouldn’t I? If there is any other better reason, I would say no. But this is a national thing and I believe that we have been crying for a good national constitution for a long time.

Another beauty is that our current Republican President is not standing so we will have no interference from him. Thirdly, and most important, boycotts have never worked for anybody in this country.

Even if we had boycotted, the people who had gone will have gone ahead to enact the Constitution. Should they come and complain later? People will think that we are not serious.

By going there does not mean that we are going to agree to everything and that we are going to defect from PF. We have never sat anywhere and say we are forming a party like others have insinuated. We are not saying we are removing Mr Sata because that is not a convention, it is just NCC.

What we need is internal democracy. We must have elections, we must go to the convention and elect our leaders. But now what it is, is that Mr Sata appoints and when he is not happy, he removes you. Whereas if you were elected by the people, you cannot easily be removed from a position like is the case now.

Q: Just how did you gather courage to call your uncle Mr Sata a thug when those thugs he allegedly sent harassed and humiliated you in Matero?

A: You know, one thing is that the people who came were Mr Sata’s security men. And as a PF member, I know that those people get instructions from Mr Sata. They don’t fall under anybody.

When they came, the first thing they said was ‘we were sent that you should never hold any meetings because you are suspended’. I told them I am suspended as a PF member but I am still a member of parliament and I am here for a ward development committee meeting. We were discussing the bad state of the roads in the constituency and we wanted to elect people to supervise a project that the Zambia National Service was going to carry out in the area.

So these men came in and started pushing me like a thief. They poured Chibuku opaque beer on me. I was very upset. I am still very upset. And I will not rest until those people are taken on. We must go to court and they must justify why they did that.
Q: What did your uncle and president say after you described him as a thug?

A: He hasn’t talked to me, he never phoned me. But I phoned him, I talked to him. I was very upset and I had the courage much more because he was my uncle and I never expected anything like that from him. I told him I was very disappointed and I believed that he sent those people because they were his people.

Q: What was his response?
A: He refused. But when this thing happened, your reporter came and found me with beer all over my body and I said what I said. I am not going to be like a coward politician who say one thing today and tomorrow they say I was misquoted. I said what I said because of how I felt. We can’t have politics where we stop reasoning. We are also supposed to respect other people’s opinions.

If Mr Sata thought he needed to fire us like he has been threatening, he should fire us with dignity. There is no need to fight each other because apart from me being his niece, I am a married woman.

Q: Has the party initiated any disciplinary action against you as a result of that statement against your president?
A: In the letter that they wrote me, they said I must exculpate myself as to why I said those words. But as you know, I have reported this to the police and the case will soon commence so I don’t want to say much about that. We will go and hear everything in court.

Q: In the light of these developments, how do you see your future in PF?
A: I have a future. I am an MP. My electorates still want me. I am still working with them in terms of development. This time there is no politicking; we must be talking about development. Now it’s time to work with the government to bring development to our people. And I am saying government because I am not going to initiate anything without money. Whether I like it or not, I will knock on the door of a minister to lobby for my people. That is the job of an opposition member of parliament; it is to lobby and convince the people in power that you need certain things.

Q: Assuming you are expelled from PF, which way do you go?
A: I am a person and I have always been a person. I don’t think my life will start and end with politics.

Q: I am talking about possibilities of joining another political party…
A: I have no plans of joining any party and I don’t see anybody chasing me from PF because I have not done anything wrong, anyway! Someone must give me good reasons for chasing me or I will not move an inch. You don’t just chase because you have powers to chase. The reasons they gave me in my suspension letter do not hold water. They must have other reasons to chase me or fire me from the party.

Q: Let’s talk about your family in brief. I know your husband My Mpazi Sinyangwe is a former Task Force spokesperson. One can say that you come from a ‘divided’ house in the sense that your husband worked for the government while you belonged to an opposition party. Just how did you reconcile these two positions?
A: I had worked in government for many years and I had been a very senior civil servant. So I understand how government works.

Politics were at our secretariat and his work was at the Task Force. When we met at home, we were a family. I never discussed anything concerning his work and I never discussed politics with him. We discussed our family and it ended there.

My husband respected my decision to do politics. But even if I heard anything, as a former senior civil servant who understand confidentiality and my limits, I don’t think I would need to go beyond. I needed to support him so that he could work well and advance his career. I am glad that even after he left, I don’t think there is anyone who can point a finger at him accusing him of having disclosed this or that to his wife.

I know some people looked at it that way. I don’t even know how his contract was terminated. I suspected that the contract was terminated because I belong to an opposition party. I said if that was the case, then it was most unfortunate because people must be regarded as human beings in their own rights. But I am glad that he served and he left with a clean name.

Q: How was the atmosphere each time you returned home in the evening when Mr Sata was busy denouncing the Task Force earlier in the morning?

A: This is my husband and we are one and if he attacks the Task Force, it touched me somehow. And one day I told Mr Sata as my uncle that ‘these utterances you make about the Task Force, people would start saying it is my husband who probably has said something to him’. I even told him one day that ‘you are saying that disband the Task Force because you want me to suffer’.

But you know Mr Sata spoke his mind. He would say that the Task Force was illegal but the man who worked for this illegal entity was looking after his niece. My husband was very understanding. Even when they terminated his contract, he took it very calmly. I felt guilty that a thing like had happened. I felt that if I had not joined politics, he would still be working.

But I think everything has got its own way of ending, and it ended that way. There are a lot of sacrifices when people live together and my husband had sacrificed a lot. I just pray and hope that the people in authority who might have thought that he was not the right person because the wife was a politician will see in the end that they made a mistake because Parliament is another arm of government and I am a member of parliament so there is need to work together to implement government’s policies.

Q: Mr Sinyangwe is out of the Task Force and Mr Sata is suddenly quiet about the Task Force, is that a coincidence?
A: I don’t know. Yes, coincidentally he is not talking. Maybe the Task Force is now legal…it’s only Mr Sata who can answer.

Q: How many children do you have?
A: I have four boys. I had one daughter who unfortunately passed on. It’s a family of men. I am the only woman.

Q: When did you marry?
A: In 1980.

Q: How did you meet…I think that this business of broadcasting must have brought you together since your husband is also from that background?

A: It’s surprising. You know I worked with him when he was transferred from Lusaka to Kitwe. He was working in the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting but education television was housed in the same house as ministry of broadcasting. We were together in broadcasting. It was just hi, hi in the first few years but I don’t know what happened later. We got very close and finally we got married. You know we were ssociation and I met very experienced television producers and writers.

Q: Could you get back to the point you were developing when you talked about being appointed as a lecturer?
A: Yes, I was appointed lecturer at the education television in Kitwe and I worked for three years. We have the same positions as lecturers in teacher training colleges; while they were lecturing to students, we were lecturing on air.

In 1989, I was appointed to assistant controller at education television. That meant that I was running the whole department of education television. We had a film department, photographic department, production and management and the research department.

Apart from the clerks, you will be surprised that I was the only woman in that department of education television heading men. It was a very big challenge though I didn’t feel it much because even when I was growing up, I was brought in a family of boys.

I attribute a lot to my late dad because he used to tell me that ‘my father had nine girls’, and the late two were my father and his young brother. He said his father gave everybody at home equal chores. If it meant climbing the tree, the women did that. So he told me that he had no boys or girls, he just had children in a home and he gave us the challenges to do.

So I grew up looking at myself as a person rather looking at myself as a woman. And when I was heading a department full of men, I didn’t feel it would be difficult, though men sometimes want to push you around.

After working as assistant controller for three years, I was again sent abroad. This time to Washington to go and do television and broadcasting management. I was attached to WVIZ television station which was also a public broadcaster. While there, I attended a very big conference which taught me a lot of things on education broadcasters and producers.

Education broadcasting in this country is trivialised; whether we talk of education for all, it would take a long time for us to achieve that. Distance education using broadcasting is very cardinal because our friends in other countries told us that they get degrees and PhDs just by using the media and reading materials.

So when I came back, I was transferred to head the whole education broadcasting here in Lusaka. At the time, there was talk that they’re going to abolish education broadcasting altogether. I asked my permanent secretary then, Dr Sichalwe Kasanda, why they had brought me to Lusaka if they were abolishing the programme. He said ‘no, we spend a lot of money buying radio and TV sets but not so many people would listen to the programme’.

I said ‘why don’t we look at the other side of things because we now have so many children in the streets who cannot afford education so we can give them education that is cheaper and therefore affordable’.

That is how I brought the idea of us having a directorate of distance education where education broadcasting could belong together with the national correspondence college so that we start at that level then move it up to grade twelve level and link it up with the university. I thought there was a total breakdown from primary school and what is happening at the university.

My idea then was to build up and link up with the university. I had a lot of discussions with the director of distance education and things were coming up but unfortunately I had to retire because you don’t work forever.

The plans that I had are not coming but one thing I am proud of is the interactive radio programme which I initiated which is known as Taonga Market.

Q: Was that your initiative?
A: Yes, that was my baby. I said ‘we have these children and mothers who spend all the time in the markets selling because they don’t have any other source of livelihood and we have grandparents with children. So why do we offer some kind of education to the out of school?’

At first they said it was impossible because I was talking of people who were scattered all over. But I was very determined. As I said earlier, I was a producer so I produced one programme for the girl-child education and the people at NORAD really admired that programme.

So they went to find out at ZNBC who did that programme. They were told that the producer was at education. They followed and I told them I was planning to sponsor education to the out of school children. They asked how this could be done. I said we just had to sensitise people by talking to them. This man from NORAD bought the idea but he was not sure.

And, Amos, I remember the two years when I planned for that programme. I never knew what a weekend was; I worked on Saturdays and Sundays. When my driver was tired, I picked my husband to come with me just in case I had a tyre burst he would help out. I went in villages talking to the people. So I piloted that project in Monze, Chongwe and Lusaka.

I had meetings with villagers, convincing them to find a mentor who would look after their children, convincing them to find a place where they could listen to a programme and also to borrow a radio from the neighbourhood for use when time for lessons come.

When I took it to Chongwe, I wanted to pilot in three areas but the councillors said ‘no, we need a centre in each of our wards’ and there were about nine wards and we gave in. So we had nine centres in Lusaka and about ten in Monze. We worked tirelessly writing programmes and did all what we could before launching the programme with Honourable Brigadier General Godfrey Miyanda who was education minister at the time. He was very helpful.

Q: Which year was this?
A: This was about the year 2000. We started with grade one and moved to grade two. It was interesting when we went to Monze because parents were removing children from normal schools to our centres because they felt that the children were learning more than in the normal schools.

This was because the radio teacher would always be there, there was nothing like the teacher has gone for a funeral or he is today sick. Our programmes were so well planned that the children learnt well.

And one thing that excited me was that when I went back to monitor, I found that even the elderly people had started using the programmes. That made me very sad because I knew that Zambians were really thirsty for education. When I came back, I told people at the ministry that we needed to do something for adults because there were things like stand, jump, in the programmes for children and it would be difficult for elders to follow that. But the elders told me they were happy because they could go to the bank and sign signatures.

So I said we needed to plan for adults. By the time I left, we had gone up to grade four. Now they have gone up to grade seven. My idea was that when we get to grade seven, we should inter-link with national correspondence college at grade six level and give them packs of modules for them to follow.

But I hear that some of our children wrote grade seven and they had gone to grade eight. I hope and pray that they will follow that because if it crumbles, I will be very sad because that is something I laboured.

Q: I know that this Taonga Market is a radio programme, but just how does it operate?

A: Now the Ministry of Education had realised that it is something they can really look to, especially in the rural areas. When I was there, I lobbied for radios, boards, chalk and exercise books. So people just find a place. In rural areas, they use even homes. Then we find school leavers who in most cases have nothing to do. So we help them out in this area.

In the programme, it is built on what the teacher is supposed to do so they just follow. I did a lot of monitoring, even with my staff to see if the programme was making progress. We did a lot of evaluations.

Q: I have listened to this programme on radio on a number of occasions but now I am trying to imagine what happens on the ground. So tell me, what happens?

A: We have training sessions for mentors once a year. We do a lot of practicing and sing the songs because we try to make it entertaining. The programme is on radio and the mentors or teachers are in the centres following the programme with the children. After the programme, the children are given exercises to write.

But the problem we had is that we were not paying these people (mentors). So I suggested to the Ministry of Education that we must have a way of motivating these people who are putting in a lot. I said ‘let’s recruit grade twelves, after they mentor for two years then we can send them to teacher’s training colleges for training’. That’s how far I left things. I don’t know if this was followed up.

The mentors were eager knowing they would go for training after two years.

Q: By the way, why did you name this programme as Taonga Market?
A: I decided to name the interactive radio programme as Taonga because in Tumbuka language, taonga means thank you. Secondly, I am so much in love with my niece’s daughter whose name is Taonga. Because I attached so much feeling to it, I gave it the name Taonga.

Q: When did you retire?
A: I left the ministry in 2003, that’s when I retired. And I really thank the ministry. They trained me a lot. I travelled a lot. At one time I was the chairperson of the SADC committee on education. I headed this committee for three years and we had Professors and PhD holders; I was there among these people as chair.

Normally, I was supposed to run just for a year but they kept retaining me for three years. And these three years I chaired the committee gave me the wider knowledge of what is happening in education.

Q: At the time of your retirement, what position did you hold?
A: I was director, education broadcasting services.

Q: What followed your retirement?
A: When I retired, the donors that I was working with were not very comfortable that I should go leaving that project. I did a lot of projects there, I was involved in the sensitising process during the decentralisation of the ministry. This programme took me to almost all corners of Zambia. I was also instrumental in the programme for the advancement of girls’ education in Zambia. I did the FAWEZA thing; I was the first publicity secretary.

So the donors wanted to retain me somehow after I retired. They said I should remain as a coordinator but away from the ministry. I was employed by USAID.

I worked just for four months when I was called to go and stand for parliamentary elections in Mpika. I left my good salary…(she laughs).

Q: Who called you to contest those elections?
A: There was a by-election in Mpika so the president asked if I could go.

Q: Which president?
A: President Sata.

Q: When did you join politics?
A: I think all of us are politicians by nature but it is the levels that matter. I was beginning to join politics at that level just after I retired. When I went into those elections, I didn’t know a thing; I didn’t know how they campaigned, how they talked to cadres because I would be upset and tell them ‘if you want money from me just go away’.
Somehow, I didn’t have enough time. I only went there for a month and in this one-month we had the nominations and elections. But I couldn’t make it.

I am normally a very determined person and get attached to people I work with. So I was attached to the people I worked with in Mpika. I said ‘I will work and I must get that seat’. I came back and continued to work with my people in Mpika.

But then I was told by my president that I will not go back to Mpika because I could contest a Lusaka seat.

Q: That’s how you abandoned Mpika?
A: I abandoned Mpika with great pain.

Q: When you decided to join politics, why did you settle for Patriotic Front and not any other political party?
A: As I said, I moved a lot across the country. I think I understand Zambia more than most of the politicians. And when I went around the country, I talked to people, to parents, children, churches and politicians. Each time I came back, I would tell them what I found on the ground.

I talked year after year but nothing moved. Then I thought ‘no, I shouldn’t join MMD because if I do, it will just be like I am just joining the same story’. But I didn’t want to belong to the failures again. I wanted us to make a change. That’s how I joined PF to make the change when we come to power because I had so many things I thought we would change if we came to power. That’s how I joined PF.

Q: I thought you joined PF because Mr Sata is your relative, isn’t that so?
A: Yes, Amos, Mr Sata is my uncle but I don’t work like that. I work out of my conviction, that I am doing what is right. You don’t join because of a person. PF is an organisation, it doesn’t belong to Mr Sata. So I joined the party because tomorrow Mr Sata might not be there.

Q: So there is also a family tree in PF?
A: (Laughter) But the difference with this family tree is that I work and convince the people that I can stand and work. I don’t want to rely on the family tree to talk for me, to make grades for me. I make my own grades. There is one thing I believe in from the time I was growing up; I must do what is right.

Q: I have heard some PF people complain that you were initially imposed in Mpika and later in Matero Constituency because of this same family tree business…

A: That’s interesting. As for Matero, when I came back from Mpika, the constituency I should have contested was Munali. I started work in Munali and I got along with the people there. But then the teachers who worked with me and the people that I interacted with when I was doing decentralisation work in Matero decided that they wanted me to be their MP. That’s how easy I had it.

When they told me this, I first thought it was a joke. But believe you me, Mr Sata didn’t want me to go to Matero. He fought that I should be removed. Even from the last day of my adoption, Mr Sata didn’t want to play a part because he didn’t want to be accused of imposing a relation on a constituency.

But the people of Matero came to Mr Sata several times saying they wanted me. And two years before elections, I was with the people of Matero. I worked with them because I wanted to know them, their problems and know the place. I also wanted them to know me. By the time of elections, it was plain sailing for me.

Q: But your uncle Mr Sata is on record as having said recently that you won Matero because of PF and if you want to be funny now he will kick you out of the party so you can prove your popularity if you think that you are popular…

A: The truth of the matter is you heard that in some instances the electorate refused the people they had given them. People now are developed. They are not just going to go because it’s a party. As for me, I think I won as me because I worked with the people for Matero for two years so they knew me. We did a lot with them.

Q: What did you do?
A: I had a lot of meetings with women. I even started youth football clubs. I was a teacher so mingling with people is my nature. I interacted with the teachers, the church, I am staunch catholic. So people knew who they were voting for. If I go with you to Matero, you will see that even the young children know me by name.

So I won as a person. I know the people there love PF but I think I won as a person because they knew me. There were some instances where candidates were imposed on constituencies and we lost. The president won by the parliamentary
candidate lost.

Q: Going back to your relationship with Mr Sata, from which side is he your uncle?
A: Mum’s side. My mother and Mr Sata are cousins. I knew my grandfather very well. I am talking about Mr Sata’s father who I adored. He was a wonderful man. When he was alive living at Mr Sata’s place, I was more frequent at their place because it was a pleasure being with him.

Q: Recently, you found yourself on Mr Sata’s other side and you must have, for a moment, forgotten that he was your uncle when you called him a thug after he allegedly sent some thugs to sort you out, how was that experience?

A: That incident was very sad. Let me go back a little, as members of parliament, we enacted the NCC Bill and I was part of that. Even in the process before the enactment, PF was part of that. Don’t you remember that my president was present at the summit of presidents at Mulungushi? The NCC was as a result of their meeting. They drew the roadmap and the Bill was brought to Parliament.

It was taken to a committee where everybody submitted, PF included. Amendments were brought to the House, we debated and enacted. Out of principle, I am not going to act against something that I was part of. I told you earlier that I stand as a person even if he is my own father and I think I don’t agree with him, I will say so. In this instance, I said I was not going to agree just because Mr Sata is my uncle. I want to do what is right.

There are two things here; to do the right thing or to go the easy way. I don’t believe that all the people who have stayed away believe that they wanted to stay away. They have stayed away because they were afraid of being fired. But I think I am doing the right thing. I am representing my people in the constituency who are not only PF. You have MMD, ULP, UPND, the churches and all those who do not belong to any party.

A party position should not stand in a way where one is representing people beyond party lines. There comes a time in one’s life when you have to put your head on the chopping board in order to do what is right.

I am a Franciscan, by the way. If you see those Catholic women who put on grey things, grey gowns. So I vowed obedience and I vowed humility. When I held the Bible and said I would defend the Constitution, why shouldn’t I? If there is any other better reason, I would say no. But this is a national thing and I believe that we have been crying for a good national constitution for a long time.

Another beauty is that our current Republican President is not standing so we will have no interference from him. Thirdly, and most important, boycotts have never worked for anybody in this country. Even if we had boycotted, the people who had gone will have gone ahead to enact the Constitution. Should they come and complain later? People will think that we are not serious.

By going there does not mean that we are going to agree to everything and that we are going to defect from PF. We have never sat anywhere and say we are forming a party like others have insinuated. We are not saying we are removing Mr Sata because that is not a convention, it is just NCC.

What we need is internal democracy. We must have elections, we must go to the convention and elect our leaders. But now what it is, is that Mr Sata appoints and when he is not happy, he removes you. Whereas if you were elected by the people, you cannot easily be removed from a position like is the case now.

Q: Just how did you gather courage to call your uncle Mr Sata a thug when those thugs he allegedly sent harassed and humiliated you in Matero?

A: You know, one thing is that the people who came were Mr Sata’s security men. And as a PF member, I know that those people get instructions from Mr Sata. They don’t fall under anybody.

When they came, the first thing they said was ‘we were sent that you should never hold any meetings because you are suspended’. I told them I am suspended as a PF member but I am still a member of parliament and I am here for a ward development committee meeting. We were discussing the bad state of the roads in the constituency and we wanted to elect people to supervise a project that the Zambia National Service was going to carry out in the area.

So these men came in and started pushing me like a thief. They poured Chibuku opaque beer on me. I was very upset. I am still very upset. And I will not rest until those people are taken on. We must go to court and they must justify why they did that.

Q: What did your uncle and president say after you described him as a thug?

A: He hasn’t talked to me, he never phoned me. But I phoned him, I talked to him. I was very upset and I had the courage much more because he was my uncle and I never expected anything like that from him. I told him I was very disappointed and I believed that he sent those people because they were his people.

Q: What was his response?
A: He refused. But when this thing happened, your reporter came and found me with beer all over my body and I said what I said. I am not going to be like a coward politician who say one thing today and tomorrow they say I was misquoted. I said what I said because of how I felt. We can’t have politics where we stop reasoning. We are also supposed to respect other people’s opinions.

If Mr Sata thought he needed to fire us like he has been threatening, he should fire us with dignity. There is no need to fight each other because apart from me being his niece, I am a married woman.

Q: Has the party initiated any disciplinary action against you as a result of that statement against your president?
A: In the letter that they wrote me, they said I must exculpate myself as to why I said those words. But as you know, I have reported this to the police and the case will soon commence so I don’t want to say much about that. We will go and hear everything in court.

Q: In the light of these developments, how do you see your future in PF?
A: I have a future. I am an MP. My electorates still want me. I am still working with them in terms of development. This time there is no politicking; we must be talking about development. Now it’s time to work with the government to bring development to our people.

And I am saying government because I am not going to initiate anything without money. Whether I like it or not, I will knock on the door of a minister to lobby for my people. That is the job of an opposition member of parliament; it is to lobby and convince the people in power that you need certain things.

Q: Assuming you are expelled from PF, which way do you go?
A: I am a person and I have always been a person. I don’t think my life will start and end with politics.

Q: I am talking about possibilities of joining another political party…
A: I have no plans of joining any party and I don’t see anybody chasing me from PF because I have not done anything wrong, anyway! Someone must give me good reasons for chasing me or I will not move an inch. You don’t just chase because you have powers to chase. The reasons they gave me in my suspension letter do not hold water. They must have other reasons to chase me or fire me from the party.

Q: Let’s talk about your family in brief. I know your husband My Mpazi Sinyangwe is a former Task Force spokesperson. One can say that you come from a ‘divided’ house in the sense that your husband worked for the government while you belonged to an opposition party.

Just how did you reconcile these two positions?
A: I had worked in government for many years and I had been a very senior civil servant. So I understand how government works. Politics were at our secretariat and his work was at the Task Force. When we met at home, we were a family. I never discussed anything concerning his work and I never discussed politics with him. We discussed our family and it ended there.

My husband respected my decision to do politics. But even if I heard anything, as a former senior civil servant who understand confidentiality and my limits, I don’t think I would need to go beyond. I needed to support him so that he could work well and advance his career. I am glad that even after he left, I don’t think there is anyone who can point a finger at him accusing him of having disclosed this or that to his wife.

I know some people looked at it that way. I don’t even know how his contract was terminated. I suspected that the contract was terminated because I belong to an opposition party. I said if that was the case, then it was most unfortunate because people must be regarded as human beings in their own rights. But I am glad that he served and he left with a clean name.

Q: How was the atmosphere each time you returned home in the evening when Mr Sata was busy denouncing the Task Force earlier in the morning?

A: This is my husband and we are one and if he attacks the Task Force, it touched me somehow. And one day I told Mr Sata as my uncle that ‘these utterances you make about the Task Force, people would start saying it is my husband who probably has said something to him’. I even told him one day that ‘you are saying that disband the Task Force because you want me to suffer’.

But you know Mr Sata spoke his mind. He would say that the Task Force was illegal but the man who worked for this illegal entity was looking after his niece. My husband was very understanding. Even when they terminated his contract, he took it very calmly. I felt guilty that a thing like had happened. I felt that if I had not joined politics, he would still be working. But I think everything has got its own way of ending, and it ended that way.

There are a lot of sacrifices when people live together and my husband had sacrificed a lot. I just pray and hope that the people in authority who might have thought that he was not the right person because the wife was a politician will see in the end that they made a mistake because Parliament is another arm of government and I am a member of parliament so there is need to work together to implement government’s policies.

Q: Mr Sinyangwe is out of the Task Force and Mr Sata is suddenly quiet about the Task Force, is that a coincidence?
A: I don’t know. Yes, coincidentally he is not talking. Maybe the Task Force is now legal…it’s only Mr Sata who can answer.

Q: How many children do you have?
A: I have four boys. I had one daughter who unfortunately passed on. It’s a family of men. I am the only woman.

Q: When did you marry?
A: In 1980.

Q: How did you meet…I think that this business of broadcasting must have brought you together since your husband is also from that background?

A: It’s surprising. You know I worked with him when he was transferred from Lusaka to Kitwe. He was working in the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting but education television was housed in the same house as ministry of broadcasting. We were together in broadcasting.

It was just hi, hi in the first few years but I don’t know what happened later. We got very close and finally we got married. You know we were working in the same building so after we married, he just worked for one year and left. Whether he was running away from me, I don’t know.

Q: Where did he go?
A: He joined Star Commercial and from that time he never came back to broadcasting. He was working for other people until the Task Force co-opted him and he served diligently. Now he is concentrating on our family business. He is working on our small holding in Chongwe.

Q: Well, we have come to the end of the interview. Let me thank you for this opportunity. I wish you all the best.
A: Thank you and you are welcome.