Prof Seshamani: an academician of note
Written by Bivan Saluseki
Friday, September 11, 2009 4:47:54 PM
I am a Zambian in spirit, says University of Zambia Professor of Economics Venkatesh Seshamani. In an interview, Professor Seshamani says Zambia today is his family's first home.
"India is only our second home, it's the land of our birth. India is the land of my birth, but Zambia has become the land of my action or karma. That is how God has ordained it should be for me and my wife and therefore, our loyalty will always to be Zambia in terms of work, in terms of whatever I try to contribute to the betterment of the country - training manpower and so on, that is really my mission," he says.
At the University of Zambia, Professor Seshamani has definitely assured himself of a place on the academic merit list.
With a CV reading like a wish-list, Professor Seshamani's work and humility is his best introduction.
Question: I would like to welcome you to this interview Professor. Just give us a brief background of yourself.
Answer: I was born and brought up in Bombay which is today called Mumbai but when I was born...obviously before India got her independence in 1947...it was called Bombay and I spent my childhood and did my school and my education until I secured my masters degree in economics over there. I also worked there for some time from 1968 to 1977 and towards the end of 1977, I got an offer of a job in the University of Dar eßs Salaam, Tanzania. So I went there. I worked in the university for four years and then I came to Zambia in 1982 and somehow although it was planned not to be so at that time, I just remained here until today. I have been working at the University of Zambia as a professor of economics.
Q: Could you tell us more about your family? If you have a wife and children?
A: Yes, I got married in 1976 to my wife Lalitha who too worked in Bombay when we were there but subsequently when we went to the University of Dar es Salaam, she worked as a researcher in the area of nutrition in the Economics Research Bureau. And then when we came here, she started working in school and today she is the deputy headmistress of the Italian School of Lusaka. We have two children. The first-born is Sharmishtaa and she will soon be finishing her doctorate in Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, USA in the field of medical imaging. And we also have a son Shreyas who will be finishing his masters degree in robotic engineering from the University of Pennsylvania next year. So we have only two children. We are a small family. But the children have been in the US for many years now and here we are just the two of us.
Q: In terms of brothers and sisters, do you have any?
A: Unfortunately, I don't have brothers and sisters because my father died. I was the first-born and my father died when I was about a year old because of TB. As you know in those years, there was no known cure for TB and therefore, he passed away and my mother never got married again. So she became a widow at the age of 19. Since then, she has remained single and when my father died, she moved to her parents’ house and so I was brought up in the house of my maternal grandparents. My maternal grandfather was a very well known educationist of his time. In fact, he was one of the first persons in India to get a university degree way back in 1915 and he worked in various institutions in Bombay with a lot of British colleagues then and he also worked in the University of Bombay in the registrar's office and then retired.
Q: What kind of a family do you come from? Did you come from a rich family?
A: No, I hailed from a fairly low-income family but it was not so low that we went out of food and clothing. I was always given good food, good clothing. I went to a good school, it was a missionary school called St Michaels High School. I finished my school there. I then had the opportunity to study in one of the premier colleges in Bombay, Elphinstone College, which was affiliated to the University of Bombay. My grandfather was very particular that I should go to that college even though it was some distance from where we were living because some former freedom fighters had also been educated there. He felt that I should also be educated there. Subsequently, I went to do my postgraduate studies at the University of Bombay and then I taught for some years. Then I applied for a Fullbright Fellowship to do further postgraduate studies in the United States and at that time, because I had specialised in mathematical economics and statistics, there was this new subject called operations research which dealt mainly with programming techniques and so on and a lot of people told me if I could also do operations research, then my training in the quantitative area would be complete. Unfortunately, there was no programme of operations research in the University of Bombay and I don't think there were other universities in India offering that. So when I found this advertisement for the Fullbright Fellowship, I said let me apply and see if I can get it. There was some minimum of requirements for one to apply for that fellowship that time. You had to have a first class scholastic record right up to a masters degree. You must have secured the first division in your school. The first degree must be a first class. The masters degree also must be a first class, something like a distinction in this part of the world. And then you had to be at least 22 years of age, you should have taught or been in employment for at least two years. Those were the requirements. And when I applied, I found that the whole process of selection took a whole year. I had to take a number of exams, tests and interviews. I came to know the reason for this only subsequently when the Director of the United States Educational `Foundation for India told me about it- that there were only six scholarships available for the whole of India, in all subjects excluding medicine and there were 40,000 applicants. And so I was one of those six lucky ones who were selected finally and I was very happy that I made it. There had been such a tremendous process of elimination to select the candidates.
Q: What happened when you moved to Dar es Salaam?
A: When I went to Dar es Salaam, I was very happy because everybody said ooh that Africa...you know is in the third world, you are leaving Bombay...but I found that the academic environment was very vibrant. You were expected to give a seminar once every term or so. If one did not present a paper, colleagues would say, 'what happened, we are waiting for the paper.' And there would be a lot of heated debates and discussions. So I finished one contract there. And they renewed my contract but by the time I was finishing my second contract, Tanzania went to war with Uganda to oust Idi Amin. It was what I would say a Phyrric victory in a sense that although Tanzania won the war, it lost a great amount of resources and the situation, especially the living conditions became extremely difficult. My daughter was born there. You could not find even get things like, baby food, milk and so on. Life became very difficult. So I decided that since my contract was coming to an end, I would go back. But at that time, there were two or three people from here. One was Dr Chilebwe Ng'andwe who was Head of the Economics Department then and subsequently became director for SIDO. He came there as a visiting lecturer. He came to know that I was a very good lecturer there. So he said since your contract is coming to an end, why don't you come to us for some two years. Another person was Dr Situmbeko Musokotwane. He came to do his masters degree there around 1979, because there was no masters in economics programme then at the University of Zambia. So I was his lecturer there and he knew me better and my competence and he too urged me to come to UNZA. And then also there was the late Dr Patrick Ncube who had taught with me for sometime at the University of Dar es Salaam and subsequently came to the University of Zambia and he also told me, 'come to Zambia.' And because all these people insisted, I asked my wife and she said 'ok let's go'. And that's how I came here.
Q: How would you describe your experience of lecturing at UNZA?
A: Ooh, it's been very, very gratifying. I think that you know, I always say to myself; if money is your main objective in life, you should not be in the academic profession anywhere in the world. Even in the United States, professors are paid very highly but they are paid much less than those who work in industries for example. If you are in the academic profession then you have to look for other sources of motivation. For me it's the opportunity to contribute to the development of the human resources of the country. I think in a larger sense I would call it psychic income, In terms of monetary income, as you know, for a very long time our salaries have been very low and if I had gone into some other profession, I would have had a much higher salary. But I felt that the value of my contribution here in Zambia through UNZA would be much greater. And over the years, I found that several of my family of students that had come under my tutelage had become people in high places. And whenever I meet them, they would greet me and say we work here because of you and so on. It used to give me a tremendous sense of satisfaction. And today, I can say I have no regrets whatsoever for the past 27 years, I lived my 27 years at the University of Zambia despite the low income and so on because I look around, I find that there are ministers, deputy ministers, permanent secretaries...
Q: Like? You can mention some.
A: I don't know if I should mention them, some people might like it, some people might not. But Edith Nawakwi [FDD president] was my student, Newton N'guni was my student, right now the deputy minister of agriculture is my student. There are permanent secretaries in so many places. But if you walk through the corridors of the ministry of finance, I think 90 per cent of them would have been my students.
Q: What about the standards and quality of students being churned out of UNZA, has there been any deterioration as a result poor infrastructure for instance, inadequate funding, brain drain?
A: You see UNZA has had a bad name only because it has not been able to run its programmes efficiently, on schedule because of lack of funds. Within those constraints, one thing they we have always made sure at the level of academic staff, is that the quality of our level of education does not suffer. So that when our students graduate from here and they go to do further studies let's say in top universities in US, UK or Europe they will prove equal to the demands of the programmes there. We try to maintain those high standards. But in terms of duration, it's because of strikes you find a four-year programme becomes six years and so on. That is what is eroding the credibility of UNZA, not the decline or deterioration of academic standards. Of course sometimes, there is a problem because somewhere in the high school the standards are not being maintained. So there are some of these students, who don't come with the level of knowledge as is expected from high school graduates.
Q: Coming to Zambian's economy. There is some prediction of five per cent growth. Although just the other day we were told by Felix Mutati that it just be about four per cent.
A: You see, Zambia is still a vulnerable economy because we are still dependant upon factors beyond our control. And so we may make these projections based on some assumptions but if these assumptions are not borne out and something catastrophic happens on the global field then everything can crumble you know. We have an opportunity to achieve five per cent growth and that will be remarkable because India for example which has been growing at nine per cent until last year is hoping that it will grow only at five per cent or five per cent plus this year because of the global crisis. And many countries are operating even at lower rates of growth. So if we achieve five per cent growth, it would be good. Of course, the requirements of growth are very high, because poverty levels are very, very high. Unless you have seven to eight per cent growth, you wont be able to make a significant dent in the rate of poverty. So that is the problem. And then there could be specific stumbling blocks, say high fuel because of the global crisis. For example last year the copper prices were around US$8,000, it crashed down to US$ 2,000 and regained to US$ 4,000 and now it around US$6,000. With such fluctuations, you will see that your economic calculations cannot always be accurate.
Q: On the global economic front, are things getting any better? Are the worst days over for the economic crisis? I know that Japan has come out of the recession. The US is making headways too. The economic crisis is seemingly over, do you think the world economic order is changing?
A: It is changing because the recent report of the IMF is saying the downturn is over and Japan, France and Germany are slightly over the pickup. And the US will also pick up except that things cannot happen pretty fast. So things will pick up but only slowly. We expect that for example jobs will be restored, new jobs will be created in a very significant way but it will still take time.
Q: Some analysts believe China is on the route to taking over from US as the global economic power? And what is your comment on the benefits and ills of increased Chinese investment in Zambia like the rest of Africa and how best can it be used to make the so-called 'win-win' situation?
A: Sure. China has the potential. There are two things about China. One is that it's a huge country with the world's largest population. So it has got unlimited manpower resource. China has the capability to produce anything on this earth. Even in the United States most things you buy are made in China. Even the American flags are made in China. So you know that way China is a model of an economic power. And secondly you see in China right now they have an advantage of not being very democratic. I was recently in China. I attended an international conference on health economics a month ago. You should go to Terminal 3 at the airport which was specifically constructed for the Olympic games. There is nothing equivalent to that in the world including the United States.
Q: Yes, I saw that too. I was there a few weeks before the Olympics.
A: Yes. Now I was told that that was an area which had slums for people. They were just told ' you have to move. We are giving you somewhere else to stay. We are going to construct the Olympic Stadium and so on.' And people had no choice. But you cannot do a similar thing in India. Let's say the government wants to construct something and wants to clear some slums, there will be 10 opposition parties trying to take advantage, march on the streets, they will gather people to incite them to do this. So you know it's not easy to implement these things. In China once the party and the government decides you have no choice.
Q: So a little bit of dictatorship and an ounce of democracy works?
A: Yes, you know a little bit of dictatorship works for a country like that and United States of America cannot do the things that China has done. That is why there is this debate about what is good for a developing country. Is it a benevolent dictatorship or is it democracy. That debate is still going on. In India we have democracy, so you can never take quick decisions.
Q: You need a dictator to whip a country out of slumber.
A: Yes. But the problem is what if he turns out to be Idi Amin or emperor Bokassa. That is where the problem is.
Q: What about the benefits and ills of Chinese investments? I asked about the win-win situation?
A: No, it's a win-win situation because, you know China wants access to the basic resources in Africa. Africa is very rich in natural resources such as minerals, which China wants. And Africa also wants Chinese investment. We can achieve higher rates of growth and development if we can get Chinese investment. But to make it truly a win-win situation, but we need to take action and enforce adequate regulatory measures to make sure that the negative consequences do not override the positive benefits. You have a couple of incidents which happened in the mines, such as the shooting incident, and no prompt action was taken. I wrote a paper which I presented at an international conference in Doha last November trying to show the difference in approach between Chinese and Indian investors. The thing is Indian investors are purely private. The Chinese investors are purely government and government-to-government relationships are very good. The relationship between the government of Zambia and the government of China, between the government of Zambia and the government of India are very good. So if a private investor comes to you and starts business, and he makes a mistake, government can immediately take action but in a similar situation if it is a government investment, then government hesitates because they don't want to spoil the good relations with other countries. It's a government-to-government relationship. And that is what is happening. So if government can somehow move and also take action or strong regulatory measures, I think it can be a win-win situation.
Q: Copper mining has continued to be the main driver of the Zambian economy despite repeated calls for diversification into other sectors, and these calls are as old as 40 years? Why do you think this process has been so slow compared with other countries like Chile which are thriving away from copper?
A: I think it is simply lack of commitment. You see, I believe that two things are required for any country's development. Right knowledge and commitment. You must be committed to the development of your country especially at community and grassroots level. Secondly you should have the knowledge to know what is the right thing to do, right policies and so on. Now if you look at the regimes Zambia has gone through, the Second Republic and the First Republic under Dr Kaunda, I think the commitment was there. Under Kaunda, I would say the right knowledge was not there, it was not sufficient knowledge. Commitment was there. I think Dr Kaunda was genuinely committed to alleviating the living conditions of the poor and making Zambia a decent country to stay in. Commitment was there but apparently the problem was with ideologies - humanism, socialism and so on and so forth, then circumstances changed- certain strategies could not be carried on and you could not sustain the benefits. When you come to the Third Republic and the Chiluba regime, I think the knowledge improved. The government realised it had to rid itself of the responsibility of producing toothpaste and sugar. There is need to allow the market forces and the private sector to largely direct the economy. But I think the role of the government is not reduced because of that. The favourite phrase of yesterday was that 'government has no business in business'. It has no business in business only in the limited sense of 'business' but it must have a prominent role in terms of regulating the economy. In fact government's role increases especially because you are confronted with major developmental challenges where a large majority of citizens are poor. And there was need for responsibility of addressing the issue of poverty. I think that commitment began to wane, that's how we lost. I think it's only the time that President Levy Mwanawasa came in that we saw that both commitment and knowledge improve. That is why even today, a lot of people respect the late President because he showed genuine commitment.
Q: So are we still seeing the commitment from President Rupiah Banda's government too?
A: I think it's a bit early to comment on the present regime. We can only hope that the high commitment and knowledge which existed during Dr Mwanawasa's time will continue.
Q: To what extent does culture influence economic progress of any country? I say so because it is believed that Tiger economies, apart from having good economic programmes, do have very hardworking culture which has catalysed their success?
A: Sure, if you are talking of culture and work culture specifically, I think it is very, very important. You see the difference between United States and Japan. Both have got good work culture but very different. There is a difference in that suppose you go to see the secretary in a company in the United States, you go there five minutes before eight, she is not there. You go there at 8 O'clock she is there. You go there at 5 O'clock in the evening, she is there. You go five minutes past five she is not there. So between eight and five, she will do her job very sincerely and that's it. In Japan, it will be 07:30 in the morning she is there up to 6 O'clock in the evening, or 8 O'clock in the evening. No over-time and nothing more. They say that this is our company. So even though the regulations state that you should work from eight to five, they are prepared to work from seven to eight. But the American would work from eight to five. You know how it is here.[Zambia] (laughs). You know I went to a function I won't mention the name. Honourable Dipak Patel was the minister of commerce. I went there about five minutes to nine. Then I found honourable Patel there, the only one waiting as a guest of honour and he asked :Professor, am I in the right place? And I said yes. But the organisers were not there. Can you imagine? Even the organisers had not come. He said I will only wait up to 09:30 and after that I will have to leave because I have to pick someone at the airport. So if they don't come by that time, I am leaving. So this is the situation and this happens repeatedly. We are not of course an exception. But we need to realise that most valuable resource..
Q; In terms of fighting poverty, are we on the right track?
A: We have begun to be on the right track. You see as far as fighting poverty is concerned, you know many of people have said the problem with Zambia is not the shortage of resources but the lack of right priorities in the use of resources. And at one time, we had not been able to do anything for poverty because we had not allocated enough resources for poverty reduction activities. It's only recently that we are trying to show some seriousness. Poverty you fight it by improving access to basic education, health services, improving access to improved sanitation and access to water. These are the areas and the question is how much are you devoting. Now the point is that a country like Zambia goes to these international conferences. They bring up all these issues and it agrees to make health a priority, education a priority and says we must devote at least this minimum percentage of your budget to education and you sign but when you come back you don't do it. You agreed in Abuja that you must apportion 15 per cent of your budget to health but you are still not doing that. So we are moving in the right direction but I as somebody who is very much interested in making poverty history in Zambia, I can tell you honestly that today...I am an Indian national
Happy to be in Zambia on my passport but I am a Zambian in spirit. I have a lot of empathy for those living on the fringes of existence. And I am of the point of view that more and more resources should be devoted to poverty reduction activities. We are improving, moving in the right direction but the pace is slow but it is from that point of view that more and more resources should be devoted to poverty reduction activities. We are improving, only slowly. We are moving in the right direction but the pace is slow. I think it can be activated.
Q: I am literally cruising through my questions because of time. Coming to religion, you are Hindu or Christian?
A: You see, nominally I am a Hindu but I always give the answer which Mahatma Ghandi gave when he was asked what his religion was. He said ‘I am a Hindu, I am a Moslem, I am a Christian, I am a Jew. I am all of these or I am none of these.' I think that these are but the same different things. If you take the Sermon on the Mount, Hinduism also says the same thing, Islam also says the same thing. Nobody would contradict the Sermon on the Mount. I had a very unique opportunity in my childhood. I was born in a nominally Hindu family. I went to a school, which was a Christian school but the school was located in an area which had a predominantly Moslem population. So in my class, there were only a handful of Hindus and there were some Christians and there were Moslems. So I used to interact with all of them and I think I have imbibed a lot and I have got so much interest in the Bible and I have a fair amount of knowledge of the Bible.
Q: Last time you did a paper on the declaration of Zambia as a Christian nation.
A: Yes, I said I have no problems with that declaration because I think it's a declaration to say our actions should be in line with Christ's teachings and if the declaration is simply to remind people...this is the purpose of your life, to attain self-realisation or God realisation ultimately and for that they need to follow the path prescribed by Jesus. If it is just to remind people of that, then I have no problems. I myself remind myself of two statements from the Bible. First, ‘seek ye first the Kingdom of God and everything shall be added unto you’. And the second is 'what does it profit a man to gain the whole world but suffer the loss of his soul?' You know. You may become famous, you may become powerful, you may be very rich in the whole world but if it is compromising your soul, your integrity, your honesty and your sense of values, at the end of the day you leave this world, was it worth it? You are not going to carry even a dry blade of grass with you when you die. What you will carry with you are your good deeds. The good actions on this earth. When you remind yourself like that, then in the course of the day, even if I am faced with a lot of temptations, I would say: if the whole world is not worth losing my soul, is a few million kwacha worth it? It's not worth it. I can't sell my soul. So in that sense, I will say that I am very eclectic in my outlook. And I think it's for this reason that for example if you take the JCTR, it's a Jesuit organisation and they have kept me on their board of trustees for six or seven years. They think of me as Christian in my thinking. So I would say that I do not really like to talk about this. I sometimes respond very cynically when someone asks me about my religion, that I am a Shakespearean. Then they say, no, we are asking you about your religion. I say I am telling you my religion and I am Shakespearean. You see, Shakespeare made one of his characters say: And this above all, to thine own self be true and it shall follow as the night the day, thou cannot be fault to any man. Ultimately if you are true to your own conscience, your own inner voice, whatever you want to believe is inside you. If I am true to that I cannot be false to you. If I am trying to harm you, I am going against my own inner voice because it will say ‘look, what you are doing is not right.’
Q: Any final comments, I know you are very busy?
A: Well, my entire family and I are extremely happy that we came to Zambia. In fact, my children consider Zambia as their home. They don't consider the United States or India because they don't know those countries. My daughter when asked; ‘where is your home’ she says Zambia. For me and my wife also, I would say Zambia today is our first home. India is only our second home, it's the land of our birth. India is the land of my birth, but Zambia has become the land of my action or karma. That is how God has ordained, it should be for me and my wife and therefore our loyalty will always be to Zambia in terms of work, in terms of whatever I try to contribute to the betterment of the country - training manpower and so on, that is really my mission.
Q: Professor, thank you very much for your time.
A: Thank you.
Labels: PROFILE, UNZA, VENKATESH SESHAMANI
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The Truth About: Nelson Chamisa
by
12/08/2009 00:00:00
Nelson Chamisa rose from student activism to become one of the key figures in Zimbabwean politics. President Robert Mugabe famously refused to cap him when he graduated at the University of Zimbabwe -- his name mysteriously disappearing from the graduation programme.
A holder of three degrees --- Political Science and Public Administration (UZ), Masters in International Relations (UZ) and Business Administration (Institute for Marketing Management, SA) – Chamisa was last year chosen for a course on Governance, Democracy and International Human Rights at Stanford University in the United States.
Now the Minister of Information Technology in a coalition government, Chamisa is considered one of the greatest orators of his generation. Here is The Truth About Nelson Chamisa:
Born: February 2, 1978
Hometown: Masvingo
Marital Status: Married to Sithokozile, have a son Ashley (4)
How did student activism prepare you for politics?
Together with the likes of the late legend [Learnmore] Jongwe, [Tafadzwa] Musekiwa, Jethro Mpofu, Daniel Molokela, [Chalton] Hwende, [Takura] Zhangazha, [Phillip] Pasirayi, Hopewell Gumbo and many others, we are products of student activism. Student politics was a leadership incubation chamber where I developed my political life. Through exposure to servant leadership, I learnt and grew in appreciating the meaning and purpose of leadership. For me, exposure is the best form of education. Through exposure; I developed and evolved in leadership.
My days as a student leader helped me appreciate and understand the challenges of leadership, challenges of representation and the challenges of managing centrifugal interests and forces.
Also, as a student leadership, we developed many forms of protest, various forms of interest articulation. Demonstrations were a language for us who felt we were oppressed … wherever autocracy and dictatorship reared its ugly head, we mobilised to smash it. Personally, I am allergic to oppression -- either self suppression or exogenous oppression, I am against it.
So I must say that background in student leadership has helped me go through the furnace, that leadership furnace … that moulds one’s rough edges and gets them polished.
You have spoken fondly of your rural upbringing. What memories and values did you draw from this period of your life?
A lot of people generally don’t like to celebrate their rural upbringing, but I personally draw a lot of inspiration and wisdom from it. As a servant of the people today, I am aware of what children from the countryside have to endure to get to achieve, and that makes me become a possibility thinker. Nothing is impossible.
I came from my rural home without an iPod, when I go back I have an iPod; I came by bus, when I go back I catch a lift. So I think that nothing is impossible, where there is will, right effort and mindset.
One important thing I have learnt is that because of tough life in rural areas and how people have to struggle for everything from firewood, water through to tilling the fields and going to school, as Africans, we are a special people, a strong people, very resilient, hardworking and capable. We deploy our main might for what is best under whatever circumstances.
Wikipedia says of you that you are an “articulate orator” who delivers “charismatic speeches”. Very few will disagree with that, but a great many probably wonder how much practise goes into it?
I am surprised at that Wikipedia conclusion. I believe we are all born to do certain things better. Some are born to serve … to serve their country. I suppose what I am doing is my modest contribution on behalf of my generation to a better world.
When it comes to speeches, I certainly don’t consider myself much of an orator … but I think most times when people speak in public, they do not want to be themselves, I am myself. I free myself from that imprisoned way of doing things. I am not shackled; I am not imprisoned by other politicians’ way of doing things. I find my own path, set my own pace and define my own delivery trajectory. So when I deliver a talk, I deliver my feelings and thoughts, I heart out and unload my mind.
In 2007, you were brutally attacked at the Harare International Airport and left with a fractured skull by suspected state security agents. How has that incident affected your life?
It brought me closer to God; it awakened and strengthened the spirituality in me; it spoke to the existence and presence of divinity, divine powers, the ever excellence of God.
It also strengthened me. I realised how we live in a sea of evil. We get overwhelmed by evil from time to time but it gave me more courage and reminded me of every citizen’s duty to fight evil.
I also realised that the life in our bodies is very easy to lose, and we just retain it by and on the grace of the Lord. I discovered that human beings can plot, but where there is God’s plan, all their pitfalls and snares become meaningless and profitless. It gave me a new sense of purpose and direction … it set a whole new trajectory for me.
You are writing a book on the life of your former friend Learnmore Jongwe [ex-MDC spokesman. Died 2002 in an apparent prison suicide after his arrest for stabbing and killing his wife]. Why?
In every individual’s lifetime, you have characters that change your life, characters that season or flavour your life. For me, Learnmore is such a person. We were friends, we were brothers … we worked hand-in-glove in everything. In fact, whatever we did was well coordinated and I just feel that it’s important that I share with others my wonderful moments with my brother … it’s an idea I have entertained for sometime that I make sure I put pen to paper to try and communicate the wishes, the aspirations, the motivations and thoughts of a friend.
I am in the process of preparing that book, which will be made available in due course. It will offer my perspective on Jongwe’s leadership, his vision and my perspective on the tragic demise of this great Zimbabwean, a man imbued with wisdom, a man pregnant with ideas and ideals, a man who had profound beliefs and vision.
It only makes sense that we celebrate the life of this man, his contribution, his history ... It will be a good tutorial to future generations, when all of us are long gone.
You had a front-row seat to Jongwe’s rise and fall. Is there anything you regret, anything you could have done, to change the course of history do you think?
I suppose that will be part of the book. But I don’t believe that Jongwe ever fell, it was the rise and rise but it was a truncated rise, a terminated rise and of course one wants to interrogate reasons for the termination of such a rare gift of intellect, a blooming flower, a brilliant mind. He was an early bloomer, he had just begun to bloom and all of a sudden there was this heat … the flower wilted. That’s not falling; there are lessons to be learned.
Jongwe was a path finder and an agenda setter. Today, young people are misled under the false promise of being leaders of tomorrow when we know that tomorrow is under siege from the very people who are making those promises.
Learnmore taught us that young people are the leaders of today, we need to play our part in building our country. The duty of today. If we don’t do it today, some people will do it on our behalf and build what we will regret to inherit and pass on to future generations.
So, back to your question, the issues you ask about are some of the things that I am not going to pre-empt. We have to make sure that we celebrate that candle, that light, that flower and then we will have many more flowers in this country, many more Learnmore Jongwes. We have to build on the foundation of course of the truncated, terminated life of a hero.
You are now the Information Technology Minister. What exactly does an ICT minister do?
As Minister, I develop the government ICT policy mix .I promote the use and security of ICTs in the country. I deal with the legislative framework of the ICTs.
But politics being politics is a full contact sport, and I guess one should not mind the occasional blind side tackles … ICTs are not well understood in many corridors in our country. There is certain technophobia that we have to tackle together. In this endeavour, one naturally faces many challenges.
Do you have an iPod?
I carry an iPod all the time, it’s my extra vein. I listen to all sorts of music; you may be surprised by some of it. I enjoy the best both worlds really -- Zimbabwean music in its various genres from Leonard Zhakata, Alick Macheso, the Charambas to Oliver Mtukudzi and then of course I listen to some R&B from the other world. I like Alicia Keys, Beyonce, Rihanna and Akon. But I am only on my iPod when I am not addressing rallies or singing MDC songs!
What do you think of Facebook?
Facebook is a fantastic innovation, a very important networking platform. Life is about relations, networking and communicating. Facebook gives that means of communication, that empowerment to know what’s happening, as well as locate friends. Owning the means of production is incomplete without owning the means of communications – Facebook is one way of communicating.
I know that people who don’t like it say it’s an evil platform and so on. It really depends on what you do with it. I guess just like a knife, it can be used to kill as it can be used positively to cut meat for a delicious meal. I guess it’s like any other instrument which can be abused, or be used to great effect in the service of mankind.
My view is that there are more advantages to Facebook. And of course it is our ambition here to see more Zimbabweans, even in the remotest of villages in the country, on Facebook and indeed other social networking platforms like Tweeter, Skype and YouTube. The internet does not sleep, and we need to take good advantage of it.
So can we safely assume you are a Facebook, Twitter and Skype user?
I am on all those platforms, yes. We don’t just preach; we act what we preach!
Imagine you are on death row, and the executioner grants you a final favour to listen to any song of your choice. What would that be?
Perhaps before we get to that critical stage, I would have successfully challenged the death penalty. I totally object to the death penalty. The Bible says you shall not kill for whatever reason; it’s there in the Commandments. The ultimate sentence belongs to the Almighty. Who are we to judge?
I believe life belongs to the maker, and we are not makers of man, we are man ourselves.
There are three things I was born with, which I will take to my grave -- hope, freedom and love. These are the three things I believe were born part of me and define who I am. Killing is a negation of ubuntu.
What’s your favourite dish?
Sadza and chicken – that’s my order even when I am in China, UK or USA. Before they even give me the menu, they will have to tell me they can’t make it! It’s what I call food. I am an African, I am a Zimbabwean, and I come from the village. When I was growing up, chicken was special meat, and I fell in love with it -- I guess because of childhood deprivation. I need to compensate for lost glory and time you see.
Labels: MDC, NELSON CHAMISA, PROFILE
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Dr Fridah Kazembe: Zambia’s first female brigadier general.
Written by Mwala Kalaluka
Sunday, January 25, 2009 7:16:57 AM
ZAMBIA Army’s first woman brigadier general, Fridah Kazembe says soldiers are not animals. Brig Gen Kazembe, who is commandant at Lusaka’s Maina Soko Military Hospital, says simply because somebody is in the army does not mean that they are immoral.
“It does not mean that they are no longer human beings, simply because they have decided to join the army. If somebody is in the army they have their integrity,” she says.
“People must appreciate these people. To say that simply because I have a profession of this nature does not mean that I am any less human and people out there… the army is very religious. It is a very religious place and we hold religion very highly in the army and even when they are in the bush, the chaplain is there to ensure that people are moral and they hold their Christian values highly.”
Brig Gen Kazembe now talks about her life in the army.
Q: We would like to thank you for giving us this rare opportunity to talk with you and I would like to welcome you to his interview. Before we proceed, give us your brief background.
A: My full names are Fridah Sakala Kazembe. I am the first born daughter of Reverend Thomas Mwanza and Mrs Margaret Mwanza. I was born in 1954, Silamba Village, chief Msoro and I am the first born in the family of 13. I had two sisters and the rest were boys. I went to St Marys’ School in Msoro until grade seven and we were that group that was combined grade seven and standard six. We wrote the exam together. So we did a combined exam that was 1966, then 67, I went to St. Monica’s Secondary School in Chipata and then I was there until I finished my form five and I came to the University of Zambia in 1971. That is where I studied for seven years.
Q: What were you studying?
A: I studied medicine and at University of Zambia.
After four years I got my bachelor of science and thereafter got a bachelor in medicine for one year. I did my internship at the University Teaching Hospital and after the internship, I came to join…I came to report to the Army.
Q: When did you complete at the University of Zambia, if I could take you back?
A: 1979 and that is when I came to UTH. I was at UTH for one year doing internship after which I came to the army.
Q: Did you do any other extra military training before joining the army?
A: I had joined as an officer in 1977, as a medical student, so I was already a cadet before I completed. I was already an officer cadet and after the internship I went to report to the army.
Q: But why did you choose to become an officer cadet while still at school?
A: Well, they were recruiting medical students. So that is how I got recruited as a medical student.
Q: Did you undergo any training?
A: The training was done after medical school. After the internship I came and I was posted to 2ZR in Arakan; that is where I was and I was the Garrison medical officer there and from there, that is when I was sent to military training. I went to Livingstone for military training and we did it together with the air force personnel.
Q: How long were you in Livingstone?
A: I was in Livingstone from September till the following year March. It is about six months of training. I came back to 2ZR at the same position as Garrison Medical Officer.
Q: Now you can continue from there and tell us how you progressed.
A: So from 2ZR, I got married soon after joining as Garrison Medical Officer and so I had to go to New York to join my husband because he was in the diplomatic service.
Q: Before you continue on that line, just tell us who your husband is?
A: He is Elias Kazembe and we were together at campus. He did economics and we met on campus at the University of Zambia. When we met, I think I was in second year and we did not get married until I finished. So I was with him in New York, I continued studying. I did not stop studying…I did my masters in public health. Then I started working on my masters on medicine. At the time that I started my masters of medicine; post-graduate masters of medicine, my husband was transferred to Canada, just across, but then I continued in New York and then when he was in Canada, he was recalled to come back to Zambia. So when he was recalled that would have been very difficult for me to manage at least Canada was nearby. I could go over the weekend and see my children and come back.
Q: You had children by that time!
A: I had children, yes, and three children. I went to New York in 1981. We were in the States until 1988 and we moved to Canada and then we came back from Canada back to Zambia in 1990. I have three children as I have said. The first one is Innocent, the second one is Chalwe and the last one is Nkula Nathan. Innocent is in Botswana and he is working there as an animation specialist. Chalwe is in medical school. She is doing medicine and Nkula is doing mining engineering at the University.
Q: When you came back to Zambia, did you rejoin the Zambia Army?
A: Yes, I had been on leave. I was on unpaid leave all the time I was away but I was in contact so that they know what I was doing.
Q: So you were on leave for about nine years?
A: Yes. So when I came back, I just came and reported that I am back and I restarted my job (laughs).
Q: Were you still a Garrison Medical Officer or what?
A: No…I had enhanced my qualifications. I had masters in public health and I was in the process of doing my post-graduate training in medicine. So what I did, immediately I came, I joined the post-graduate training in medicine at the University of Zambia. I continued so that I could finish what I had started and so I was attached to UTH but then I still had to give service to the army through Maina Soko. I used to conduct clinics in Maina Sako and do rounds in Maina Soko but I was attached to UTH. So after I finished my post-graduate training at UTH, I was fully in Maina Soko, initially as senior registrar and then consultant physician. When I came fully…I think that was 1998.
Q: But who inspired you to join the army as a medical professional at the time you completed at the University? How many women were joining just as you did?
A:..when I joined as medical officer, there were a lot of nurses that joined in, as officer cadets at that time. I was the only female medical doctor that joined at that time. The other medical doctors were interested but I think when the came and they got the conditions of service they got discouraged and chickened out. I guess its just wanting to serve I guess. I do not know…I do not know, but it was exciting that time so I joined.
Q: What was exciting when the conditions were not conducive?
A: I do not know but I felt that I could have a career and that is how I joined at that time.
Q: Can you now tell us how you rose through the ranks at the Maina Soko Military Hospital, from a consultant physician to the position you hold today?
A: Well, once I became a Colonel there was no other rank, anyway, other than just to work. So I worked with a lot of patience. At the time I came back from New York I was a Captain. I had joined at the rank of Captain and when I came I was still a Captain and therefore, given the fact that so many years had passed I was given the rank of a temporal major and then confirmed as a major and then from there, temporary Lieutenant Colonel, then a Colonel.
Q: This was within a space of how many years?
A: It took a bit of time, because remember, I had lost about 10 years from the time I joined and then came back from the States. By the time I came back, all my friends had gone. They were now Colonels and above. In 1998 I was still a Lieutenant Colonel up until 2000 that is when I became a full Colonel.
Q: Now, tell us how you rose to your current position from there?
A: What has inspired me at Maina Soko is giving care to the patients and I was in-charge of the wards. So taking care of the patients in the wards and then doing clinics and then after I had been here for some years, I became deputy Commandant to the then Commandant and then became Commandant of the Hospital after the Commandant retired. I became Commandant last year, 2008 in September. I was still a Colonel. Well, I continued giving service really, and giving administration while taking care of the patients.
Q: You have told us that you enjoy giving care to the patients but have things improved over the years?
A: Well, things have improved over the years but things are also changing, isn’t it? When we started off…I remember when I started off as a junior doctor at that time we used to get K200 take home. So K200 was my take home at that time but now our junior doctors get more than the K200 that we used to get. So things have improved but again things have become equally expensive. So maybe even though the numbers seems to be better but then the money does not seem to buy as much than what our K200 used to buy.
Q: It is now an open secret that you are no longer a Colonel, tell us how you were promoted to the current position of Brigadier General?
A: There are many things that I have done and…I do not know…there are a lot of things that I could have done that led them consider me for the rank of Brigadier General?
Q: How many levels do you have for you to reach the top most rank, if that were possible?
A: The next level is a major general, then lieutenant general, then a general.
Q: Are there women in Zambia that have reached that level?
A: No…Well, to begin with this was profession for men and as women we joined quite later into the Zambia Army and we joined as professionals. We came in either as doctors or as nurses and therefore, I think because we joined as professional we actually do not compete on the other side because we came in specifically as professionals. It is only later really that they started recruiting women in the regular, who can then be infantry and be able to compete on that level.
Q: But why has this kind of chauvinism existed in the army?
A: It is not really chauvinism. I guess that is what it was like. In most armies it used to be men and the women would just come in as professional helpers, as nurses, doctors, specific professional areas. That is where the women would actually be involved but when it came to the fighting basically, I think it was a men’s job. Historically you did not expect women to actually join the army and it was a man sort of area and therefore, I think we came on board quite late and that possibly explains why maybe we do not have many of us who have been able to rise to this level.
Q: What have been the major sticking points that could have hampered your quick progression to your current rank?
A: Well, there are many. To begin with just the fact that I got married and I had to go away for nine years. That means I lost 10 years along the way, you know. Whilst my friends were progressing, I was doing another job (laughs) of taking care of the family. That in, itself, was something that could possibly explain why it has taken that long.
Q: Are you telling us that given your professional ability, you could have risen to that position a long time back?
A: Yes. Had it not been the fact that I lost about 12 years, if you count it all.
Q: How were you notified of your recent profession?
A: I think the Defence Counsel sat and then I think they made their appointment over the weekend and I was called to say that there is good news at Command Post. Somebody in Arakan Barracks called and told me that there was good news and I said what? The other Sunday not this Sunday and so I am like what, I have not seen anything? But maybe you will eventually see the promotion or the signal that came in. So when I came to the office on Monday that is when I saw it in writing.
Q: How did you feel?
A:Well…I was surprised…yaaa…because when you reach my age really some of these things you do not expect them. You say all my life it has not happened. So…Well I said well the Lord is in control and he has taken care of this one.
I know it is giving hope to others and some people thought that it was a no go area. I think this has given a lot of women hope that actually you can rise and that all you need is the best and what you need is the right qualifications and you will be able to compete with the men in the field. All you need is to have the right qualifications, the ability to do the job and you should be able to be given the job.
Q: I heard you talking about God, are you a Christian?
A: I am Christian yes. I am an Anglican. I am very active in the church. Well, I am very active in the church and I find myself being involved in many aspects of the church. I am with the Mothers’ Union in the Church and I am the president of the Mothers’ Union for the Lusaka Diocese and before that I had been the chairperson at Cathedral of the Holy Cross for many years for the Mothers’ Union. I have been on the council for the Cathedral; the council that runs the activities of the Cathedral of the Holy Cross and I am a member of the standing committee, which runs the affairs of the church in the whole diocese. I am involved with the women, teaching the youths and doing health services for the church. We go to rural areas examine people and even in the church I am involved in preventive health care.
Q: Going by your profession, are you involved in any area of research?
A: Yes. I am a member of the National Research Committee in the country, which coordinates in the country and ensure that we check on what is happening around the country and I am involved in research myself. I do my own research and I have been involved in a number of researches involving the sub-region and so I have been quite active in research because I believe that is where most answers come from and with the things that we do if you do not do research then you do not know what you are doing.
I have done research in HIV/AIDS, meningitis, cancer for the cervix, maternal mortality and currently I am involved in finding a way of helping women who have postpartum haemorrhage. To a layperson, postpartum haemorrhage is condition where after delivering a baby women usually have complications of bleeding. So right now we are involved in a programme to find a way of helping women not to go into shock as a result of haemorrhage.
Q: What issues are coming out from this research you are doing on postpartum haemorrhage?
A: We are hoping to find a solution, really, to help the women so that even when they have postpartum haemorrhage at least that haemorrhage does not leave them to die because our mortality rates are very high and that has to reduce.
Q: Are there any extra short courses that you have done during this period you have spent at Maina Soko?
A: I have done disaster management. I did a course on disaster management and so I have a certificate on disaster management. I have also done courses in HIV management, malaria management and I have hospital management courses; how to manage a hospital, health care financing and I have done quite a bit of travelling as well to attend various conferences. I have attended conferences on the prevention of cancer of the cervix, women conferences like I attended a conference on human resource for health care, just to make sure that we have got enough doctors and nurses in Africa to take care of our patients and prevent the brain drain that is happening in this part of the world. I have been privileged to be part of that conference that sought to find a solution to the health crisis that we have, where we have our health care providers going away from Africa. So I have been part and parcel of that crew. Then I went and attended the Women Deliver Conference, where we are looking at women’s issues to find out how we can reduce maternal mortality. So I was privileged to have participated in that and…I think those are some of the courses I have attended.
Q: What are your views on the issue of the brain drain having left the country for the USA after you were trained at the expense of taxpayers?
A: My conscience was bugging that I must come back and that is why I came back, actually. If my conscience was going to say that I could actually go and should not have remorse over my country, I would not have possibly come back. I kept holding on to the fact that I was trained by the Zambian government and I was to pay back the Zambian government for the training that I had, for the experience that I had. The skills that I have is as a result of the Zambian government investing in me and therefore, I have to provide health care to the Zambians. Well, I believe that those people that go out there need to look backwards and see how we can make this pasture green. We should be looking; what is it that we can do there to make this environment greener in order for them to come back because home is always home. Regardless of how many years you are going to go out, you will still come back anyway. So if you have not created an environment for you to come back to, where are you going to go? Is there any place that you can go to other than home? Because, I mean I have worked in other parts of the world but it is not the same like being at home. Okay, you can get the money but money is not everything in my profession. You need the satisfaction to say you are doing good and you are helping somebody’s life to be better and if that aspect is not there, you are getting the money but you feel that you are not actually contributing to the development of your country, then you are missing out on something. You must be part and parcel of the development process. How many people are privileged to get the kind of education that we have? They are very few individuals out there that have been privileged to get the kind of training that I have. There are not many out there that have the kind of post-graduate training that I have.
Q: Are you imparting this knowledge that you have on other upcoming medical professionals?
A: Yes. I am an honorary lecturer with the University of Zambia. I give lecturers and clinical teaching to the students. I have been doing this since 1990. So at least I have helped many to be what they are.
Q: The Zambia Army being an institution that is involved in disaster management, how involved is you in this framework?
A: Yaa…I was actually chairperson of the Disaster Committee on Medical Services. We did come up with some plans for the country. I was actually involved in MEDFLOOD; a disaster management team that went to Morocco for six weeks in the desert in 2003. We were in Moroccan desert. Initially it was a simulation of a disaster. It was a simulation of a flood and we went with the American team. It was a simulation but what happened is that soon after that, they had actual floods. When we went, it was to train the people out there how to deal with a disaster, how to manage people and I think they were well prepared by the time that disaster was happening. At least they had actually participated in that simulation that we went to do. Then what happened is that after we had done the training, we had to provide health care. So we provided health care to many during that visit who had possibly not received health care for many years. So it was quite a good experience in the desert actually, and living in a country like this one you have to live there just to appreciate Zambia, just how beautiful this country is.
Well, as an institution the Zambia Army is well conversant with disaster management and the training is such that it prepares you to deal with disasters. So just being an army personnel actually prepares you to deal with disasters. It is part and parcel of your training. When you go to do more training, it is just to polish up on what you possibly already know as an army person.
Q: Apart from working at Maina Soko, are there any places outside Lusaka where you have worked?
A: I have worked in a number of areas. I was in Monze, I think, in 90, 94 to 95. I was working at Monze Mission Hospital from UTH, as part of the post-graduate training. Monze was of course a different environment completely, it being a mission hospital. The environment was a bit different from the environment where I am now. It was a small institution; everything of course was quite compact. You have to be quite close to your patients because it is a small environment where everybody seems to know whatever everyone else is doing and it was a good experience being able to manage with limited resources, as compared to some places where you have scans whatsoever. Well, I learnt the language. I learnt a bit of Tonga so that I could just be able to communicate with the patients.
Q: What inspiration based on what you have achieved, do you want to leave for your children?
A: I have always told my children that whatever you do, do your best, put in your best regardless of how small it looks. When you do your best, do not do your best today and tomorrow you do not do your best. It must be persistent. It must be consistent that you do your best every single day so that people notice that when this person does a job it is done properly and it produces results. They must persevere and nothing should stop them and they learnt that. There are so many things that would have pulled me away from work but I have persevered through that.
Q: There is negative perception where people feel it is not right to marry somebody in the army because they are too mobile. What is your view on this perception?
A: Well, it is not correct. The people in the army are human beings, they are not animals. They are human beings; they have got values, they have got morals. Simply because somebody is in the army does not mean that they are immoral. It does not mean that they are no longer human beings, simply because they have decided to join the army. If somebody is in the army, they have their integrity. They need their respect and they must be held accountable for whatever it is that they do. People must appreciate these people, to say that simply because I have a profession of this nature it does not mean that I am any less human and people out there the army is very religious. It is a very religious place and we hold religion very highly in the army and even when they are in the bush, the chaplain is there to ensure that people are moral and they hold their Christian values highly. So I know that because they are rough and whatever, that they are expected to be rough in all areas. They have their morals very highly and the integrity is not something that we actually maintain of ourselves.
Q: Finally, what is your word of thanks to the Defence Council over your promotion?
A: I personally, would like to thank the President most sincerely, as the Commander-in-chief for considering me as a woman, through giving me a chance in a domain that is basically a man domain and for him considering that I was qualified enough. I had the expertise. I had the experience. I was honest. I had the loyalty to this country and therefore deserve to be given a chance to hold the position that I have and to be promoted to the rank of Brigadier General. So, I certainly thank the President and thank all members of the Defence Council for having out their heads together to have decided to promote me and also decided to give me a chance. What they have done is historical. It is history and what it shows women out there is that if you can do your best and you can perform and have the appropriate qualifications and you work persistently, people will notice. If I can do it, it means even the other women can do it if they have the appropriate qualifications. They can also get to this appointment and this position that I have reached.
Q: Well, Brigadier General Dr Kazembe let me thank you for according us this opportunity to talk to you and we wish you well in your new position.
A: Well, thank you very much.
Labels: FRIDAH KAZEMBE, PROFILE
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I’ve come to unify the country - Hichilema
Written by Amos Malupenga
I have come on the political scene to unify the country, says UPND presidential aspirant Hakainde Hichilema.
Hichilema says those who are saying that he is a tribalist just want to reduce his chances of providing a service to Zambians. Hichilema, who is one of the three presidential candidates - Sakwiba Sikota and Robert Sichinga, says people labelling him as a Tonga tribalist are wrong because he has never been tribal.
“You remember that Andy Mazoka was given that Tonga label for many years. When he died, the very people who labelled him Tonga were passing accolades about him,” says Hichilema. “Andy was not tribal, he was a quality person. People would want to pass the same tag to me in order to reduce my chances in providing a service to Zambians. They know I am not tribal”
Hichilema says it would be a tragedy if the Tonga tag continues as it can deny someone from Southern Province the opportunity to serve the country “because God chose that I be born in Southern Province... irrespective of the quality that I may offer”.
“This is what I want to change. I have come on the political scene to unify the country, to be inclusive and take out the polarisation, the stigma. We should be proud to be who we are. There should be unity in diversity,” says Hichilema.
Question: In the first place I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity to talk with you. I know you have been very busy the last few days, or should I say weeks. My first question is: who is Hakainde Hichilema?
Answer: Amos, the first thing I should do before I answer your question is to thank you for visiting us at our home. We are very pleased to have you here.
To proceed to your question, I am Hakainde Hichilema. I was born on 4th June 1962 in Monze West in a village called Hachipona in chief Hamusonde’s area.
Q: Who are your parents?
A: My parents are Mrs Violet and S. Hichilema who reside in the same village that I was born. They are quite well known in the village; we are a large family. I still visit my village at least three times a year.
Q: What are your parents doing in that village?
A: My mother is still alive but my old man passed away sometime back. The family is still in the homestead I was born.
Q: Could you now give me your brief education background?
A: I started school in 1969 at my local primary school called Mooya in the village I mentioned where I did grade one to grade four. I moved on to another school called Nkandela where my uncle was teaching somewhere near Pemba in 1973 to proceed with my education from grade five to grade seven.
Then I proceeded to go to secondary school at Kalomo Secondary in Southern Province. I completed my form five, as it was called those days, in 1980. Then I proceeded to national service. We were the last lot to do national service. And I am very pleased that I went through that programme. It enhanced my character, especially strength of purpose.
Q: Where did you do your national service?
A: We did it in Ndola at Mushili camp. I only did six months of military training. I didn’t do the production side because those days what used to happen was that those who did very well with their form five results left after six months for university or college. Luckily, I did very well so I proceeded to the University of Zambia (UNZA). That was in 1981.
Q: What did you study at UNZA?
A: Amos, I must tell you that I studied subjects which I am very happy about. I studied economics and business. I graduated with a merit in 1986.
Q: What happened after your graduation?
A: I was very fortunate because I was one of the good students. And in the third year, your results would assist potential employers to identify the good students. So immediately I finished in 1986, I didn’t have to look for a job. I went to work for a firm called Equator Advisory Service which moved on to change the name thereafter. Then I moved on to a firm called Coopers & Lybrand.
Q: In what capacity did you join Equator Advisory Service?
A: As a young graduate, I joined as an assistant consultant. And remember my results had not even come out. The employer identified me because of my third year results. So I was an assistant consultant doing lots of projects, viability studies, feasibility studies.
Even when I moved to Coopers & Lybrand, it was because we worked with a Coopers & Lybrand team that came from London working on a restructuring of Indeco in those days. Because of my linkage with that team on joint assignments, a gentleman who was a senior person from Coopers & Lybrand in London thought that I made sensible contributions and asked me to join Coopers & Lybrand. That’s how I joined Coopers & Lybrand as assistant consultant. This was still in 1986.
After joining Coopers, Amos, I must count myself luck in a way because I had quite a speedy progression in the firm. Many people like to say that I mature quickly but I am not sure, Amos, because people are the best judges. So I moved very quickly from that position of assistant consultant in late 1986 and rose through the ranks to various positions until I became a director in 1989 at a very young age, I must say.
From there, I continued to progress in the firm. I travelled a lot in the region and doing assignments in different parts of the country basically on the corporate advisory side which is largely my skill area. I also travelled the world a lot. A few years later in 1994, I took over as chief executive of Coopers & Lybrand. I was the youngest in the firm but I was made chief executive as my colleagues thought I had something to offer.
After that, we ran the firm. But if you remember in the late 1990s, the country went through a lot of difficulties economically. And after those changes in 1991, things started to reasonably pick up. We worked very hard, grew the firm to a point where we had several partners and staff.
I continued leading the firm up to 1998. In that year, Coopers & Lybrand merged with Pricewaterhouse. And we didn’t merge in Zambia so we changed the name to Grant Thornton. So I took over as chief executive of Grant Thornton and I have continued to run the firm up to the day of this interview (Thursday). Amos, I must tell you that I have been running in that role for twelve years.
Q: In what activities is Grant Thornton involved?
A: Basically, Grant Thornton employs over 120 professional staff in Lusaka, Ndola and Kitwe offices. Grant Thornton Zambia is a leading international professional services firm providing corporate finance, accounting, auditing, corporate recovery, privatisation, management consultancy and tax advisory services to reputable clients world over. Grant Thornton is a member of Grant Thornton International which is operating in more than 100 countries.
My role, even in Coopers & Lybrand, I did belong to a number of international firms’ committees which made me travel a lot. So we have done quite a lot of work in the country and beyond and many clients know the firm and they know Hakainde.
Q: When your name first came up as Mr Mazoka’s preferred successor, some people said you were a managing partner in Grant Thornton while others said you were the owner...What is your status in Grant Thornton, on that score?
A: Basically, as I said, I played a role of chief executive in the firm. My role was basically to provide strategic direction as I worked with my colleagues to achieve synergy.
Now your question as to what my role is...The way the firm is structured is that I am one of the shareholders, equity holders in the company. It’s a group of us. Coopers and Grant Thornton is one of the most diversified partnerships. We have partners from Zambia, Europe and Asia.
Q: With this position you have taken to go into active politics, where does that leave you in as far as your position at Grant Thornton is concerned?
A: The way our firm is structured is that you are only there if you are active in the business. So when you decide to do other things like what I have decided, I have taken early retirement from the firm.
Q: I am told that you have served on a number of boards of various institutions and that currently you are the board chairman for Barclays Bank Zambia...
A: Amos, I have been very fortunate...because of my activities in the corporate world and the type of work I do, I come in contact with lots of businesses and people. As a result, during that interaction, some people think I can offer some value on the corporate side so I serve on a number of boards. If we count, they will come to somewhere around twenty. And I chair a number of these including Sun International, Greenbelt Fertilisers Ltd, Media Trust Fund, Export Development Programme, I am a director of Zambia Investment Board, Seedco Zambia, African Financial Services Limited, Zambezi Nickel or Bermuda Limited based in Bermuda, West Lake Investments - a company based in Mauritius, I am a board member of Zambia Association of Chambers of Commerce and Industry and Zambia Business Forum. I also serve on seven other boards, the list is long, we can save time.
Q: With your decision to enter politics, does it follow then that you will cease to be member or chair of these various boards?
A: In many cases, it will depend. I will either retire in some cases, which is not a worry to me, but in some cases I have some personal investments in them so it will depend.
Q: In which companies do you have personal interest?
A: There are a few like...maybe I should not mention them so that I do not get them victimised. You know in our political set up, businesses get victimised. I am a victim of such issues so I will protect them, I won’t mention them. But I am shareholder in some of these companies and we will see what happens after the election. If I get elected, I will probably leave almost all of them. If I don’t get elected, I will return to my corporate life.
Q: Apart from Grant Thornton, what other businesses do you run?
A: I said some of these companies I mentioned, I have investments in them. We run private farming, we are ranchers; we have a couple of ranches in Chisamba, Choma, Kalomo and many people know our ranches. I am a cattle rancher.
Q: What are the names of those ranches?
A: Because we try to live a private a life, that’s why many people are asking such questions. My ranches are just called HH Farms [Hakainde Hichilema Farms], there are no names and you will not find a poster on a number of them. But they are quite reasonably well run and many of our friends know them.
Q: I am told you also have some shares in Coin Security which company is now called Mint Master...
A: Yes, you drive me into it now. I tried to avoid that because of the victimisation I talked about. And this is one of the things I would like us to change as a country.
Q: What sort of victimisation are you talking about?
A: Basically, what happens is that many politicians who have come before us in government tend to be vindictive. They don’t want those businesses where other people who may have friends in other political parties or opposition so to say, they tend not to give businesses to those companies despite the fact that these businesses employ a lot of Zambians and pay tax.
Q: I am also told that you had shares in Mint Master together with the late Anderson Mazoka, among others...
A: Amos, I knew Mr. Mazoka since I was a child although there was a big age difference between us, almost twenty years. Yes, we did some businesses together with Mr. Mazoka and that’s one of them. There are several others but I will ask you to excuse me so that I don’t mention these other companies.
Q: Before we proceed to talk about the politics, tell me about your family. Who is your wife and children?
A: Amos, thank you for asking the family question. I am a family man. I have more or less broken the family rule, I come from a large extended family but I am married to a dear lady, a lady I love so much called Mutinta Hichilema. We married in 1988, two years after I graduated from UNZA. I was in a hurry. Like I said to you, I have sort of done things fairly quickly. A lot of my age group would be doing different things but I will try and move on.
Q: Why were you in a hurry to marry?
A: It’s my nature. I wanted to settle down quickly and settle down on the job. So I thought family was a stabilising factor. As I travelled a lot, I needed a family to come back home to. And I am very fortunate to have found this lady.
We have lived happily ever since and we have three children - a daughter called Miyanda who is twelve years old, we have a son Habwela who is nine years old and we have another son Chikonka who is six years old. The girl and the boy are out in boarding school. Chikonka is the only one with us at home. Miyanda is at Banani Secondary School somewhere near Kabwe and Habwela is at Bwengu in Monze.
Q: Did you meet your wife at the university?
A: Not at all! I met her in Lusaka. Incidentally, she used to work for Barclays Bank. We met during one of these travels in Lusaka and I started tracking her down until she agreed to my proposal.
Q: What’s her profession?
A: She is an office manager.
Q: Is it by design that you have only one wife despite the fact that you are Tonga or there is still time for...?
A: No, Amos, one of the things that my wife and I are pleased about is that we have decided that one husband and one wife is enough for either of us. As I said, we come from a polygamous family life situation. We look after each other but I think it is important to stick to one partner. You cannot love two people the same way. I am strong believer in that. So Mutinta is sufficient for me and I don’t have to have another. I actually advise others to keep to one partner.
Q: Aren’t you breaking the Tonga tradition?
A: Slowly, it will break down and I would like to take a leadership in that. You are aware of the HIV situation. But even without HIV situation, Amos, you can’t look after more than one wife equally. That’s where inequities start in society.
Q: And getting to politics; you have declared an intention to succeed the late Mr Mazoka as UPND president and this decision has raised a lot of debate both in UPND and the country in general. Many people are asking who this Hakainde is, where is he from and what is his political background?
But maybe before you deal with these questions, could you just give me your background with Mr Mazoka. When and how did you know Mr Mazoka?
A: As I told you earlier, I knew Mr Mazoka’s name from childhood because we used to hear about the great things he used to do in the corporate world in those days. Later on, we came to meet physically in town. Some people introduced the two of us; not that I didn’t know him before but these people wanted us to know each other better because as individuals they thought we would benefit from getting closer.
And I thought it was good for us to get together because I had heard about Mr Mazoka.
Q: Which year was this?
A: This must have been in the late 1980s or early 1990s, long before Mr Mazoka decided to become a politician. Obviously, we shared a lot together - business understanding, the vision for this country in terms of development and we ended up having joint investment in one or two businesses.
And when Mr Mazoka decided to join politics, we agreed that I would remain behind in business - that he would take the front seat and I will take the back seat. And that is how we worked so the issue of being a stranger [in UPND] does not arise, we take most of the strategic measures in UPND.
You know that Mr Mazoka initially was in MMD but they hounded him out. He stood as party treasurer in Bauleni and won the elections but the elections were nullified. Eventually, he moved out of the MMD and many of us encouraged him to move on.
Q: In short, you have been a UPND member from inception?
A: You can say so.
Q: Maybe let me rephrase the question, are you a UPND card carrying member or you are just a sympathiser?
A: I am a UPND card-carrying member.
Q: From inception?
A: I can’t remember the exact date when I bought the card, the card is somewhere. But I bought the card from the early days of UPND and many of the colleagues in UPND are aware of that because we worked with them on the strategy side, the vision for the country, development - economic and social, we worked together on other forms of support to UPND.
And I must tell you, Amos, that I got a bit of victimisation from government for doing that over the years.
Q: Was that the reason you chose to remain in the background?
A: Not at all, because at any one point there are have to be people...If you look at a bus carrying twenty passengers, you can’t all sit in the front seat. Some people will take the front seat, some people will take the back seat while others will be in the middle and the bus will be moving at the same speed and the fact is that all the people in the bus are moving at the same speed. In any job, there are players playing different roles in order to get the job done. So I was just playing a different role.
Q: Wasn’t your stay in the background a sign of cowardice? Is it that you foresaw victimisation from the government and so you chose to be in the background?
A: Amos, when you look at me do I look like a coward? Not at all! It was not a sign of cowardice. As I said, I was already victimised anyway. But I continued my support to UPND because I believed in the development vision of UPND.
The issue with me, Amos, is that I am a friend of many people - people in government, people in opposition. But with regard to the development vision, I shared that with UPND. So cowardice is not an issue. Many of the people who would call me a coward know that we work together and people in power have always known this; I think up to the highest level.
So there is nothing to be afraid about. Nobody has broken the law, we have a democratic country and the Constitution allows for that. People should not be afraid. If I were afraid, I would not be able to do what I am trying to do now.
Q: I have heard some people say that you were not a UPND supporter per se but a Mazoka supporter because you thought that Mazoka would be president of Zambia and thereafter he would pay you back your investment in UPND when he was in power...
A: That cannot be right, Amos, because Mr Mazoka was not the owner of UPND. He was one of the critical members of UPND, a very respected dignified Zambian, one of the best individuals this country will ever produce. And I think the country owes Mr Mazoka that dignity.
But having said that, he worked with a team. Some of the team members know me; some may pretend not to know me. I think it is just a question of a competitive process going on now. I believe in the UPND manifesto. It is the best. Just look at it. The MMD have tried to copy it but they can’t implement as it was envisaged by the UPND.
I am not an opportunist. I have been offered several jobs in different places. You didn’t even ask me earlier, I went to study in the United Kingdom, to do a master of business in finance and business strategy. I am a trained business negotiator, I am a qualified change management practitioner. So I had many offers out there but I wanted to be home.
Q: When did you go to the UK to read for your MBA?
A: In the early 1990s and came back after the elections in 1991. I was at the Birmingham Business School at the University of Birmingham; it’s a very good business school which is very well known.
But the point I was making, Amos, if I may return to your question, is that I am not an opportunist. Ask people who know me in the business community, ask people in rural areas because I told you that I was born in the village so I am a villager.
If I was investing so I can get a pay back, when UPND was denied election victory in 2001 I would have left, I would have stopped supporting them. But I continued, I even did more against the advice of many people that doing that will make my businesses suffer.
Q: If you were to quantify your contribution to UPND, how much money are we talking about? Is the figure in hundreds of millions of kwacha or billions?
A: Someone [Sakwiba Sikota] has told you that I am just one of the many supporters of the UPND.
Q: I am asking about your personal contribution, is it in hundreds of millions or billions?
A: I wouldn’t quantify that. I wouldn’t want to count because I did help as and when there was need to help. Many other people helped. But I wouldn’t get a calculator and start calculating. It’s like someone asking you how many times you go shopping; you don’t count those times because it is a necessity. For me supporting UPND was a necessity because of its vision for the country. So counting pennies here and there is not my character.
When I am committed to something, Amos, watch the pace. I take time to decide but when I decide, I am very committed to the cause, like the cause I have decided to commit myself to.
Q: Have you always been political?
A: Every human being is political by nature.
Q: I am talking about active party politics...
A: Active politics in the sense of running for office, no. But in the sense of getting involved as we have discussed, yes.
Q: Usually, people get interested in politics when they are in the university or college. At what stage or when did you develop the interest for politics?
A: I have always been active in the sense that we were quite active students when we were at campus. We were very pro-progress.
Q: But someone told me that you were much more on the reserved side of things at campus...
A: Largely people see me as quiet especially those who don’t have a close relationship with me because I tend to look at what is going on, observe and help out without wanting to be given credit. That’s my nature. But you find me in a boardroom situation, ask my colleagues, they will tell you a different situation. I am quite active.
Q: How would you describe yourself, are you an introvert or extrovert?
A: You just have to look at the list of my friends. I have a lot of friends all over the country and the world over. I have friends in the business community, among the donors, in government and literally everywhere. And you will be amazed at the number of emails and phone calls I have received from the time I made this decision, encouraging me to go ahead because they know I can make a difference.
Q: As you sat in the UPND’s back seat, did you ever think that one day you would take the leadership of the party or play an active role in the front seat?
A: I didn’t plan to take the position I have agreed to run for at the moment. But if you mean well to work with colleagues, they decide that you can play a role bigger than what you offer yourself for. That’s what I know about leadership. Let the people be the ones that decide that you can play a leadership role. This is what has happened.
I am sure you have been observing at The Post that when the request came for me to take up the challenge, I basically ignored it. The pressure built up and developed a life of its own until I gave in to that pressure.
Q: To the best of your knowledge, where did this request come from?
A: Amos, I think let’s talk about it because it is important. A lot of people say the request came from Southern Province only. That’s incorrect. It’s only that people from Southern Province were mourning and angry and they talked about it first and talked about it openly.
But the request came from all over - the party members and people from all walks of like, the business community and my fellow village people. By the way, I do a lot of community work. Over the last fifteen years, we have done schools, clinics, deep tanks and we assist a lot in the areas where we have farms. I pay school fees for children numbering fifty who are not mine.
Q: Why is it that this pressure was heaped on you who has always been in the background and not Sakwiba Sikota who is the vice-president and now acting as party president? I am asking this because it was much more expected to look at Saki as Mr Mazoka’s natural successor considering the fact that he is vice-president...
A: It’s quite a tricky question but I like answering questions. I don’t like dodging them. I can only imagine that it is what people saw in me. If people thought that I would come in and destroy the party, they wouldn’t have asked for me. If they thought that I would fail them, I think that they wouldn’t have asked for me. They asked for me because they knew that I would contribute towards advancing the party’s vision, economic development and social agenda for Zambia through UPND and UDA. And I would like people to understand that it’s a more fair position to take up a role when people want you to do it.
Q: From what many people are saying, I get the impression that you were settled for, for two reasons - your wealth and the tribe, being Tonga. What’s your comment on that?
A: Amos, you saw my comment in your paper the other day that I do not subscribe to that. This country needs quality leadership, an inclusive leadership, a leadership that would bring the country together and not polarise the country.
Q: But those Tongas who proposed your name from Southern Province categorically said that Mr Mazoka should be succeeded by a Tonga. Some even suggested that they needed someone with resources to run the party and you seem to meet these two requirements in the sense that you are a Tonga who is considered to be very wealthy.
A: I wouldn’t consider myself to be very wealthy. I would consider myself as one who is willing to help...
Q: So how rich are you?
A: Do you think a Tonga man, as you call me, will tell you how rich he is? Tongas are basically humble and they will not tell you things like that. In our culture, you never talk about how rich you are, let people say what they see.
Q: So what do people see of you?
A: Amos, I pay school fees for many children including those who are not mine. We help out in the community because our culture encourages us to share even in a large family. UPND is a large family, UDA is a large family, Zambia is a large family but nobody would anchor a large family like Zambia on his personal resources. It is the efforts of all members and citizens in supporting a good cause.
But I have to answer your Tonga question because I would really love to answer that.
Q: Before you do, it is said among some UPND people that Mazoka’s successor should have resources and not just have resources but also be generous with those resources. From what I have heard so far, you seem to me to be a generous person. Is that one of the reasons that has qualified you to contest the UPND presidency?
A: Generosity is how we were brought up; it’s a cultural aspect. You can’t train yourself to be generous, it’s in your blood because you feel for other human beings. Personal wealth should not drag the decision to lead a country of this magnitude.
I think it is the qualitative aspect that matters. How many wealthy people, if you call me wealthy, have not been called upon to lead UPND? Many people who are wealthier than me have not been asked to take up the UPND leadership. I suspect the pendulum swings more to the quality, the service and the humane feelings that one has.
And talking about merit, you have seen what I have been doing in my small way. You have got my CV. When you look at companies I have associated with, I suspect that question is answered. Talk to people who know me in the business community, donors and many others who will tell you who Hakainde is. Even people in the ruling party will tell you who I am.
Talk to my workers here. I have a couple of workers who I have kept for many years and I have a policy that someone who works for me for a couple of years, I assist them to build a house. Three of these workers you see here I have built houses for them in the localities they live around Lusaka. One is in Bauleni the other is in Kalikiliki while the other one is in Kanyama. That’s me. But I will leave it to the people to judge if I am a quality man.
Q: Could you now address the Tonga issue?
A: Amos, how wrong can one be to label me a Tonga. You remember that Andy Mazoka was given that Tonga label for many years. When he died, the very people who labelled him Tonga were passing accolades about him. Andy was not tribal, he was a quality person. People would want to pass the same tag to me in order to reduce my chances in providing a service to Zambians. They know I am not tribal. Two of my close personal lawyers do not come from Southern Province - one comes from Northern and the other comes from Western. I won’t mention their names in case they are victimised.
Q: But someone told me that even at campus, you were only in the company of Tonga friends - friends like Muna Hantuba, Irvin Zyuulu, Dinde Simacheche, Arnold Shilimi and someone called Austin...
A: How wrong could that be in the sense that I have just told you about my personal lawyers who I knew from the university, they were friends of mine. I am sure, someone who gave you that information just wanted to continue with this tribal tag which is a non-issue.
I can mention my lawyer’s name, short of embarrassing him. Michael Musonda, the former LAZ president is my lawyer and friend who I knew from campus. I can mention many more - Mr Mukande, Charles Kakoma who happens to be a UPND member of parliament is a school-mate. If you talk of close friends Valentine Chitalu is my close friend, Elias Chipimo. People even accuse us of a Bemba-Tonga arrangement. I have friends from all provinces and I don’t want to embarrass them by mentioning their names because the system seems to be vicious.
Q: Some people in UPND feel that you have not come out strongly in condemning people who are pushing this Tonga tribal issue...
A: We can continue with that tag. And if it denies someone from Southern Province the opportunity to serve the country because God chose that I be born in Southern Province, don’t you think that will be a tragedy irrespective of the quality that I may offer? This is what I want to change. I have come on the political scene to unify the country, to be inclusive and take out the polarisation, the stigma. We should be proud to be who we are. There should be unity in diversity.
Q: How do you rate your chances against Sakwiba Sikota?
A: We will see, the voters will say it. I am one who wants to work and work on what has to be done. The voters will have the last laugh.
And for me, I would like to keep the party unity - unity in UPND, unity in UDA. I also want us to unify other opposition groups so that we can generally have a party in power and an alternative government. If I had my way, I would just have two or three political parties because then people will focus on development issues, not to jump from one party to another.
Q: How is your relationship with Mr Sikota?
A: Saki is a friend, I would like to consider him as such. I have nothing personal against him. We worked over the years together, he knows that and I know that. There has not been an issue, really. I think after we are through with this process...
If I had my way, not that I don’t want an election, but I think we would have sat down and talked through it. I have made several efforts to talk to him but I think he has been busy running the campaign.
Q: I hear that you invited him for a meeting so you could interest him to continue with his position of vice-president as you go for the top-most position...
A: No, Amos. What I wanted from him is just to discuss how we could keep the party unity as we compete in the process. Whoever wins, if he takes over a cracked party, what value would it be? It will be of no value to both UDA and the country. We should ensure that we keep party unity to provide a platform for advancing the economic and social agenda of the country.
If you ask me why I am doing this, I will say I want to bring permanent change to our economic scenario, a change that will deliver jobs, business opportunities. I want us to have a government that will promote business, investment so that investment can produce a cycle of investment, job creation, savings and tax income to government. That’s the cycle we are missing. We need to embark on a process that delivers value to our people in health, education, clean water supply and all those social sectors. Mind you, all this must be funded by business. If business is weak, we cannot have a strong social sector. But people don’t understand this.
Q: Assuming that you succeed in becoming UPND president and you consequently take the leadership of UDA, automatically you will have to stand against President Mwanawasa. If we came to that, how do you rate your chances?
A: Very bright. But again, the masters are the Zambian people, the voters. Our chances are bright, Amos, not out of deceit but based on the economic agenda. We should not go into politics to steal from taxpayers. We should go into politics to serve the people of Zambia.
Q: As leader of UPND or UDA, do you think it will be easy for you to dislodge President Mwanawasa from office?
A: Amos, I am youthful, I have the energy. I have many Zambians who, from the time I came on the scene, have begun to see a new breed of politicians. You want to call me a politician? I am actually not a politician. I am one who wants better life for Zambians. It only so happens that in order to accelerate this, you have to have political office.
Q: Assuming you ascend to the helm of UPND, how easily acceptable do you think you will be to the leaders and members in UDA?
A: I think the UDA memorandum of understanding is very clear; parties will agree by consensus. If all of us in UDA are focussed on getting the best man for the job, one who will appeal to and excite voters, I think collectively we will make the right decision. If we are not focussed on personal interest and personal desire to be the president...If you look at me, I don’t have the desire to be president for the sake of it. I want to take the role to do what I believe Zambians want. If we share that common understanding in UDA, it will be quite amicable to settle on the right person.
Q: But some people in UDA have expressed reservation that looking at the time remaining before elections, it will be difficult to sell names like yours to the electorate because you are not known, you have just sprung up from nowhere...
A: Amos, there is no springing up from nowhere. You are in the newspaper business; check what people from the Copperbelt are saying, check what people from different parts of the country are saying about this fellow. Remember something, when Dr Kenneth Kaunda took the presidency he w
Labels: HAKAINDE HICHILEMA, PROFILE
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